Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 181 posts

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#61

Post by dragontamer »

constantcrying wrote: post #53
therouwboat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The algorithm claim seems extremely weak. Unless you can get some actual developer to testify that he was explicitly ordered to build the algorithm to report a range which he knew was impossible to reach or something similar, this seems practically irrelevant. Of course he was ordered to build it that way, it's not like some worker is just going to decide by himself.

>Of course he was ordered to build it that way Zero evidence for that.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba...

> The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said.

> “Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the person said, adding: “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.”

-------

This is evidence, is it not?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#62

Post by bdamm »

bdcravens wrote: post #38

My EV6 shows me a range that seems to be based on recent driving. When I've been conservative, the range is high; when I've been driving sportily, the opposite. Does Tesla do the same?

It does, but only once you put a destination into the navigator. At that point, the car will tell you how much power remains at the end of the trip (and for a return trip) and that number in my experience is always highly accurate.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#63

Post by nsenifty »

TheRealSteel wrote: post #52
jackmott42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

How can you say nobody cares about city range? That's all I care about.

Because people don't tend to drive non-stop for hundreds of miles at cities (except perhaps taxis)? You also always have a charger nearby.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#64

Post by sdfignaionio »

constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

Bad example. Porsche's performance numbers are famously conservative. Most reviewers easily exceed what is advertised.

Take the 911 GT3, a car I picked at random. Car and Driver testing found the following:

>The GT3 offers both a seven-speed dual-clutch automatic (a.k.a. PDK) or a six-speed manual. ... At our test track, the automatic managed a 2.7-second 60-mph time while the six-speed manual test vehicle snapped off an impressive 3.3-second run to 60 mph.

https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/911-gt3-gt3-rs

Porsche advertises 0-60 times of 3.2 seconds for the PDK and 3.7 seconds for the manual. They undersold the car by 10-15%.

I'm more cynical than most, but it actually isn't normal to over-promise and under-deliver to the extent Tesla does.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#65

Post by Night_Thastus »

m463 wrote: post #59
heattemp99 wrote: post #33

The biggest fail IMO is that if you use this range constantly, you'll basically degrade the battery heavily. These top ranges require a full 100% charge (bad for the battery) and a pretty low level of discharge (bad for any weak cells in the pack). So yes in a special case you have that range. Using it often will cause faster battery pack degradation. My Chevy Volt has a 15kwh pack, and only lets you use 10kwh. The b…

I think you could use the range and if the battery fails within the 8 year warranty they should give you a new one. Many consumer goods work like this. Lots of cheap power tools are sold with the understanding that the consumer will use them a few times and no claims will be made during the warranty period. Many (most?) gym memberships are sold with the understanding that many clients will come a few times, then neve…

EV batteries are very expensive both to produce and to install.

No sane company wants to deal with the possibility of paying for battery replacement if they don't absolutely have to.

Using the "whole battery" at the expense of its lifespan is not only worse for manufacturers, but it's worse for the environment as well. I think responsible charging and usage is critical for current battery technology.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#66

Post by m463 »

redserk wrote: post #30
dragontamer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

I've worked tech support at a couple of different organizations early in my career. It does not seem at all unusual to create a team dedicated to a particular class of issue so other support staff can focus on a broader range of issues.

In tech support parlance, this is called "setting expectations".

unfortunately the expectations were already set by the pre-sales marketing.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#67

Post by mrguyorama »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #48
MBCook wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

That’s on the regulators to define a metric, lest EVs compete on made up numbers. EVs are so new of course that organizations are still figuring this out globally.

But Tesla is using that metric in a place most normally don't, and they are doing that purposely as elsewhere they use an in house estimation like everyone else.

No gasoline car uses the EPA fuel economy to do it's range estimation, EVEN WHEN IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR THEM TO DO SO, because it's wrong enough often enough to make a range estimation using it lose significant value.

Tesla has made a choice to stray from normal industry practice. If they have done so in an attempt to sway customers with the incorrect numbers, that should be considered fraud. That's pretty damn difficult to prove as a crime, but not hard to make likely in a civil case.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#68

Post by goalonetwo »

I always found it interesting that almost every EV in real-life exceeds their EPA range, while Tesla in real-life cannot even get close.

I would not be surprised that Tesla over-optimized everything with the EPA test as an utility function. (reminds anyone of the VW scandal?)

https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#69

Post by constantcrying »

dragontamer wrote: post #39
constantcrying wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>lie to customers Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car. >We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla…

> Is that alleged? The fuel-meter is absolutely lying to you at 50%+. And the customer-service reps know it, and they even have trained responses over this conspiracy.

No, this is about the claim that representatives told customers that is normal, that their cars have lower ranges than advertised.

The allegedy cospiracy would be that Tesla managment and its employees were conspiring to quickly deal with customer complaints. But what is actually illegal there? Note that the representatives were truthful when they dismissed customers. Their cars were not broken.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#70

Post by kube-system »

7speter wrote: post #49
MBCook wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

Most, if any, cars don’t get close to their epa fuel economy numbers under “normal” conditions.

I usually hit the EPA numbers on any car I've owned, when I drive the way people are supposed to drive. Although as horsepower and vehicle handling has drastically improved over the past 30 years, "normal" driving seems to have changed a bit.
Post reply on HN