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Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

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Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#61
The use cases for the WEI proposal are pretty clear from the explainer (https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/...):

Google "will be able to request a token that attests key facts about the environment their client code is running in."

Google "will ultimately decide if they trust the verdict returned from the attester."

"Allow" Google "to evaluate the authenticity of the device and honest representation of the software stack and the traffic from the device."

I have replaced "web sites" and "web servers" in the original explainer text with "Google" for clarity of intent.

Why would Google want these capabilities in web browsers?

What does Google plan to do with them?

What follow-on actions is Google planning?

Google marketing exec: "We need to lock down web browsers so we can make more money by showing ads."

"Ad blockers need to be prevented. The new WEI APIs will ensure that ad blockers aren't running, that our ads are being seen, and that no DRM is being compromised."

"We also want to prevent ad fraud. With WEI we can ensure that ad clicks are legit and that people are watching the ads we show. If we can't control the operating system like we can on Chromebooks and Android phones, then we need to control the web browser with cryptographic certainty."

Getting browsers to adopt and implement Web Environment Integrity is Step 1.

Step 2 is where all Google web sites start requiring Web Environment Integrity to be used or they lock you out of the site.

Step 3 is where all websites serving Google ads require Web Environment Integrity to be used.

Step 4 Profit!

Web Environment Integrity is the beginning of the further DRM-ification and enshittification of the Web.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#62
post #23
post #6

Google seems to be escalating the speed of its efforts to restrict its user base to the completely non-technical, but Apple and Facebook already own that market. It also sounds like they're promoting yet another way to make "the internet" slower, more bloated, and have greater impediments to usage.

This proposal only impacts "the web", which has already been going downhill for years now due to unsustainable ad-reliant business models. The internet is fine.

> The internet is fine.

I wish I could agree. The internet isn't in nearly as bad of shape as the web is, that's true. But it doesn't look nearly as healthy as it used to, as more and more services are moving to the web and abandoning the internet.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#63
post #32

> Exactly how the rest of the world feels about this is not necessarily relevant, though. Google owns the world's most popular web browser, the world's largest advertising network, the world's biggest search engine, the world's most popular operating system, and some of the world's most popular websites. So really, Google can do whatever it wants. This is the point that company breakups start to make a lot of sense.…

> When Google can do something that every one of it's users hates

I don't think this is remotely the case. Quite a few tech-savvy people I know (some of them software developers) use Chrome and mostly don't care about whatever Google does with it. I mention "manifest v3" and get a blank stare. I talk about advertising and ad blockers, and most people don't care, with some of them not even using ad blockers.

We really live in a bubble, here on HN. Most people think of privacy as some abstract thing that they have little control over, and are mostly fine with that. And some are even also fine with government erosion of privacy, in the name of "save the children" style arguments, and of corporate erosion of privacy, in the name of getting free stuff in exchange for their personal information.

It's a sad state of affairs. If most people really did care strongly about these sorts of issues, then I think it would be baffling why we haven't seen more change here -- after all, Firefox is a perfectly viable alternative to Chrome that very few people use. But the lack of change is no surprise: most people don't care.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not until Mozilla gives in.

As I recall, Mozilla caved last time with EME so I would not count on it.

Yeah, that was when I realized that Mozilla wasn't really able to stand up to the bad guys as much as we'd hope.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#66

It honestly boggles the mind that the same company I used to respect twenty years ago has morphed into the evil monster that is modern Google. A tragic fall from grace.

Such is the fate of all companies. Companies need to be allowed to die in order to facilitate competition, but because of a failure of antitrust regulators to do their jobs, giant companies have been allowed to leverage their war chests to perpetuate themselves by gobbling up competitors and prolonging their own demise, to the detriment of us all.

Google needs to be broken up, and the other tech giants too. Bring back competition to the market or we'll continue marching towards Blade Runner corporate dystopia.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#67

They're going to prevent me from running an adblocker in this "web integrity" environment, aren't they.

Not until Mozilla gives in.

The market share of firefox is so low and there are already a ton of popular websites that don't work on firefox. Mozilla will very much be forced to follow along here.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#68
post #32

> Exactly how the rest of the world feels about this is not necessarily relevant, though. Google owns the world's most popular web browser, the world's largest advertising network, the world's biggest search engine, the world's most popular operating system, and some of the world's most popular websites. So really, Google can do whatever it wants. This is the point that company breakups start to make a lot of sense.…

But that's the catch, company breakups are extremely hard to perform especially when you're talking about such a giant company being tackled by an organization that only has ~400m in funding. Especially when they can point to the other giant companies as defense against claims of monopolist behavior. See Google using Microsoft, Apple, and Amazon as a reason for why their ad business should not be broken up in the January lawsuit.

On top of all this, a lot of users don't care, which is a problem itself, but also leads to an even harder time trying to navigate a company breakup. The convenience is too great for them, and it's too easy for the above noted companies (alongside other giants like Walmart) to shift public opinion.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already get flagged as hazardous and uncool for not using https, even on a perfectly-static site. Some of us called that out as a slippery slope leading to ubiquitous gatekeeping, but we were shouted down in the name of (as usual) "security."

That is because without https, there is no guarantee that the site requested is bring delivered as the site intends. For example, an ISP could insert data or scripts into the page.

And monkeys could fly out of my butt. Not everyone has the same threat model.

Faced with a choice between a vague future threat that might happen (an adversarial ISP or other MIM attack) and a certain future threat that will happen if we let it (incumbent gatekeepers locking down the Web), I'll take my chances with the former, and opt for less gatekeeping rather than more.

Re: Google’s nightmare “Web Integrity API” wants a DRM gatekeeper for the web

#70
post #68
post #32

> Exactly how the rest of the world feels about this is not necessarily relevant, though. Google owns the world's most popular web browser, the world's largest advertising network, the world's biggest search engine, the world's most popular operating system, and some of the world's most popular websites. So really, Google can do whatever it wants. This is the point that company breakups start to make a lot of sense.…

But that's the catch, company breakups are extremely hard to perform especially when you're talking about such a giant company being tackled by an organization that only has ~400m in funding. Especially when they can point to the other giant companies as defense against claims of monopolist behavior. See Google using Microsoft, Apple, and Amazon as a reason for why their ad business should not be broken up in the Jan…

As hard as it may be, to paraphrase the ancient parable:

The best time to break up Google was 10 years ago.

The second-best time to break up Google is today.

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