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Advice From An Old Programmer

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#61

Post by loso »

mseebach wrote: post #55
etrain wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed here. It's amazing how many people could be replaced (or freed up to do better things) by very simple shell scripts or excel macros. This is where someone who knows a little programming but understands the business process really well can be highly effective. The danger, in my view, is that these first simple solutions tend to have more and more bolted on to them and over the years maintaining them is mo…

It's really a tragedy that the same company - Microsoft - is the origin of the only reasonably successful business-focused programming environment (VBA) and the notion that interacting with a computer through any other means than point-and-click - especially typing command and editing text files - is hard and is only for stupid geeks with bad hygiene.

Microsoft is not responsible for people hating to type commands in the command line, early computing is. In the past you were forced to type commands to get anything done and a lot of people hated it. The introduction of the GUI made things "easy" for most people.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#63

Post by msluyter »

I'm also pretty old, relatively speaking, but I think of myself as young programmer because I started somewhat later in life. Early in my career I made the mistake (for me) of going into software testing and I found myself pretty bored and unmotivated. But now that I'm a dev, I've found that my passion and dedication to the craft has only grown over time. All that stops me from coding all night when I get home from work are the physical barriers (hands/back).

Well, that and my girlfriend. So my advice is that if you want to stay in it for the long haul, play a long game: be passionate and consumed with what you're doing but don't burn out. Have friends, hobbies, and a life outside of work.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#64

Post by michaelochurch »

wladimir wrote: post #50
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love programming and find it very relaxing. I would probably also like re-arranging chairs at a charity function. Or solving mathematical puzzles in books. I also love instrument flying, which is like real-time fluid dynamics where you die if you screw it up. But I've come to understand that these are just properties of the types of people who grok computers -- detail-oriented, able to spend many hours in the zone,…

By the way, the fun part is learning the technology. The hard part is working with people -- which is why it's about a million times more important. That's very interesting, and indeed seems to mark a certain personality type. Most people would see that exactly the other way around, that working with people is fun and easy, but the technical stuff is hard and extremely frustrating. It depends completely on your skill…

That's very interesting, and indeed seems to mark a certain personality type. Most people would see that exactly the other way around, that working with people is fun and easy, but the technical stuff is hard and extremely frustrating.

Learning technology is fun when it adds something new. For example, if you know functional programming, then Gang-of-Four "design patterns" are completely useless cruft and not especially interesting to learn. It's painful to learn that sort of stuff when it's less powerful than what you already have and would be able to use in a better environment.

"Working with people" can be fun, to a point. It's enjoyable when there's no power relationship, or a symmetric one. What's difficult is the context-switch from programming to interpersonal communication. It takes some time.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#65

Post by tsunamifury »

gaius wrote: post #33
OoTheNigerian wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I think he means by "if you have coding as a secret weapon" in this case would be, if you are a Marketer that can code as an extra, you will be highly valued. I think it is hard to argue with that.

Do you know any such marketeers?

I am a marketer who can code in a rudimentary manner. I've done projects on a shoestring budget that have netted companies thousands of new customers and hundreds of millions of dollars.

What helps is that even if I can't code the entire project, I do know how to properly source and manage people who do. I have enough of an understanding to respectfully manage all the business and technical partners in a marketing project -- and help them work together in a way that produced a better sum of the parts.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#66

Post by randomdata »

d4nt wrote: post #44
o1iver wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you're worried about getting respect, you're worried about the wrong thing". I don't agree with this. I agree that if you're worried about getting popularity, then you're worried about the wrong thing. Respect is important, but only from the right people.

Yes. We seem to be trying so hard these days to make our organisational structures appear flat and informal (e.g. open plan office spaces, casual dress policies, "360 degree reviews" and an aversion to using job titles) that I feel it's just pushed the competition for status and respect underground. The people who've been around for a long time simply find other ways to show newcomers that they're important or that t…

> an aversion to using job titles

I just never understood the purpose. Humans are not inelastic beings who are a fixed cog in the wheel. I guess my official title is developer, but I spend just as much time in UX/design and IT roles, not to mention managing people doing the same.

And that is just at the place of my primary source of income. I work in other fields, completely unrelated to software, on the side. Out of context of my entire employment picture, developer really makes no sense as a title.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#67

Post by rickmb »

o1iver wrote: post #29
edw519 wrote: post #28

Thoughts from an Older Programmer... I've been programming for a very long time. Me too. So long that it's incredibly boring to me. Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever. ...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were. I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well. Eventually though this just…

"If you're worried about getting respect, you're worried about the wrong thing". I don't agree with this. I agree that if you're worried about getting popularity, then you're worried about the wrong thing. Respect is important, but only from the right people.

I don't agree with that either. Respect and popularity can both serve as currency in virtually any society.

If you want something for which popularity is the currency, by all means feel free to pursue it.

It only becomes a problem when people pursue any kind of currency just for the sake of having it, be it money, popularity or even respect.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#68

Post by exor »

The meta-topic is about disillusionment, which in this profession comes from having to learn new libraries and knowledge that you know will soon become obsolete. Reduce the risk by focusing on learning what interests you (language & industry), and accept only interesting work if possible (or create your own fascinating projects, if you're the entrepreneurial type) -- or work as a contractor, where you pick your projects, focusing on your favorite language.

Don't let yourself become a cog in the machine, learning one company's proprietary library after another; to me, this is what leads to programmer burnout.

One of the challenges of a programmer (among other professions) is leading a balanced life; do not let your work define you too strongly.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#69

Post by aangjie »

nadam wrote: post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

Am also planning to switch to quantitative finance, though am just figuring out a sense of balance between work + learn/play time. I would call myself to be in the "early adulthood" phase and am figuring out my first love is math.

- Even if am not the quickest/best at it.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#70

Post by loup-vaillant »

> Which programming language you learn and use doesn't matter. Do not get sucked into the religion surrounding programming languages as that will only blind you to their true purpose of being your tool for doing interesting things.

That, is a dangerously double-edged wording. I see two ways of interpreting this, which are almost opposite.

(1) "Languages don't matter, in the sense that whichever you chose doesn't change the end result." Which is flatly, provably false. Different languages have different strengths and weaknesses, which makes them suited for different sets of problems. Use the wrong tool for your particular job, and you will find that your program took too long to write, or has too many errors, or is too slow to execute. Just thinking about C, Python, video encoding, and quick sysadmin work should make it obvious to about anyone here.

(2) "Languages don't matter, in the sense that they are a mean, not the end." Which is true for exactly the same reason the first interpretation is false: what should control your choice of language is your end goal. Personal preferences only matter to the extent you expect to have more fun. Given that your choice of language will change the end result, you'd be wise not to give it too much weight.

I think the author meant the second interpretation. The key words are "their true purpose [is] being your tool for doing interesting things.". A tool is only good to the extent it serves its purpose. For any given purpose, some tools are better suited than others. If no such tool suit some purpose of yours, consider crafting a custom one. In this regard, programming languages are no different.

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