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Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

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Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#61

Post by sneak »

yarg wrote: post #51

The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. This seems to be universally true, and when it becomes apparent that advertising doesn't work and isn't profitable, dark patterns are the best that you can hope for. Short of a company having the internal need for a generally useful distributed communications platform, as well as a willingness to release it relatively freely, I struggle to see how t…

I think for-profit is fine; I think the need to profitably apply eight figures of capital is the problem.

It's fine to seek profit; it's seeking triple digit millions of revenue that drives the problem.

Is it possible this is simply a knock-on effect of too-low interest rates for so long? Too cheap VC money?

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#62

Post by lotsofpulp »

jamil7 wrote: post #49
ftxbro wrote: post #8

There is a possibly more general phenomenon where a brand gets good reputation and then begins cutting cost and people will still buy at the high price. I don't know if that one has a name or if it's the same concept as enshittification.

Is this a product of the way modern MBAs are taught? Seems to be a standard playbook of building reputation, scaling and then aggressive optimisation and cost cutting.

Surely people realized profits can be increased by cutting expenses before “modern MBA” education came around.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#63

Post by p-e-w »

yarg wrote: post #51

The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. This seems to be universally true, and when it becomes apparent that advertising doesn't work and isn't profitable, dark patterns are the best that you can hope for. Short of a company having the internal need for a generally useful distributed communications platform, as well as a willingness to release it relatively freely, I struggle to see how t…

> The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives.

Only because, despite their immense importance, those platforms are essentially unregulated.

Imagine water suppliers were unregulated. There would also be "perverse incentives", such as doctors paying them to add poison to the water so they get more patients and can make more money. But nothing like that ever happens, because there are rules such companies must abide by. Therefore, they simply sell water for money, and that's it. There are no incentives to extract more profits through other means, because anything else is prohibited.

I fail to see why analogous regulation wouldn't work for online communication platforms.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#64

Post by otikik »

HlessClaudesman wrote: post #40

How much of enshitification can be explained by rampant managerialism? Managers need to feel powerful, hire more managers. Managers need to meet their performance targets or just want to carve their own little Mt Rushmore face in the product, wacky user hostile decisions ensue.

I think it can be explained better by a different -ism.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#65

Post by wunderland »

A perfect example with the recent changes at Twitter:

> Most Twitter users barely tweet and don't care about followers - a "heavy user" tweets on average less than three times a week. So if someone is posting regularly enough to be willing to pay $8 a month for a blue tick, but has not built up a sizeable following organically, this is a very strong signal that the posts they are producing are no good.

> It is exactly that content that Twitter's new model relies on promoting - and those newly-minted blue ticks are quickly learning that there is no magic behind the checkmarks. New followers are not magically heading their way. The problem wasn't a biased liberal algorithm, it was that their tweets are no good.

> That means lots of blue ticks stop paying - but everyone else is forced to read the low-quality content that the remaining blue ticks produce. This is what is powering the enshittification of Twitter.

(From: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/the-slow-sad-death-of-twitt...)

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#66

Post by amatecha »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #43
amatecha wrote: post #15

Funny timing, as I just described Duolingo's recent trajectory as being an example of "enshittification" to someone who was angry that they have to do even more "quests" this month than any previous one, to earn the monthly badge (merely a fun thing on your profile to look back on). Gotta drive that engagement and keep users in-app as long as possible...

This seems like a weirdly trivial thing to categorize as enshittification. It's just a vanity badge, not a core component of the app experience.

The perceived significance of the reward is irrelevant and doesn't affect whether its degradation is "enshittification" or not. It's not excluded from that categorization because it's considered a "trivial" feature. In fact, I'd argue it's specifically a good example of enshittification because it's one of the very few things that's actually just "a nice thing" the developers added, that was previously a nice friendly thing to grant when someone gains 1000xp in a month. A cool badge. Fun. They didn't have to have this nice little thing, but they did. That's cool, right?

If you use the app regularly (as you "should" if you're learning a language), you will absolutely certainly get the badge. Well, that is, until recently, because some of the quests can be difficult to accomplish. No longer is it just a nice consistent monthly thumbs-up in the form of a fun little badge, it's now a source of uncertainty and perhaps even a source of anxiety for people who are driven by "collecting" (e.g. "achievement hunters"). Sure sounds like enshittification to me, regardless of how big a deal it is.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#67

Post by rightbyte »

sneak wrote: post #61
yarg wrote: post #51

The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. This seems to be universally true, and when it becomes apparent that advertising doesn't work and isn't profitable, dark patterns are the best that you can hope for. Short of a company having the internal need for a generally useful distributed communications platform, as well as a willingness to release it relatively freely, I struggle to see how t…

I think for-profit is fine; I think the need to profitably apply eight figures of capital is the problem. It's fine to seek profit; it's seeking triple digit millions of revenue that drives the problem. Is it possible this is simply a knock-on effect of too-low interest rates for so long? Too cheap VC money?

Maybe it is a sunk cost fallacy? I.e. not aiming for some stupid amount of growth is the same thing as telling the VCs you have failed and wasted their money.

So going for some unhealthy revenue target is the path of least resistance, since the failure still is in the future.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#68

Post by yarg »

troupo wrote: post #60
yarg wrote: post #51

The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. This seems to be universally true, and when it becomes apparent that advertising doesn't work and isn't profitable, dark patterns are the best that you can hope for. Short of a company having the internal need for a generally useful distributed communications platform, as well as a willingness to release it relatively freely, I struggle to see how t…

> The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. The need to have profit is the goal of any business. The problem isn't that. The need for profit has been entirely replaced with the need for continuous unimpeded growth. Which is decidedly not the same thing, but no one cares anymore, and profit doesn't even come into equation anymore.

When the goals of the customers and the goals of the company are at odds, things will never work out long term.

But I disagree that the continuous growth model is the cause, although I certainly believe that it frequently adds fuel to the fire (growing a company when it's making a loss on a per customer basis frequently leads to accelerating death spirals as well as all manner of desperate measures).

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#69

Post by Nevermark »

vore wrote: post #58
Nevermark wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If badges motivated learners to do things that benefited them, but now (they feel) badges motivate behavior that benefits the app maker more instead … that would be a clear example of enshittification. Rule 34 needs a twin: Anything can be useful. Therefore, anything can be enshittified. And will be. Period dot period. QED. I have spoken.

How can it be a "clear example" when it's subjective by your own admission ("they feel")?

I used that qualifier because I am taking their claim at face value. I have no independent way of confirming or confuting the facts.

But if their assessment of the badge change is correct, then it is a valid case of enshittification.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#70

Post by [deleted] »

manvillej wrote: post #21
amatecha wrote: post #15

Funny timing, as I just described Duolingo's recent trajectory as being an example of "enshittification" to someone who was angry that they have to do even more "quests" this month than any previous one, to earn the monthly badge (merely a fun thing on your profile to look back on). Gotta drive that engagement and keep users in-app as long as possible...

to be fair, practicing is a pretty essential component to learning a new language. "increasing engagement" also means more practice. Its not an entirely selfish motivation.

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