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Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

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Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#61
post #10

Great article. I had seen pictures of his writing den, but this really opens up his day to day routine in a way that I hadn't envisioned. This is depressing: The only complication involved a pension that Delany thought he’d earned from the university; it didn’t exist. Makes me wonder about his other business relationships and if there was a mismatch between what he expected vs. what was delivered. The fine print of e…

I'd suggest starting with Conversations with Samuel R. Delany (2009):

> It may seem paradoxical from my statement that generally speaking I think sexual relations between children and adults are likely to go wrong and that most of them are likely to be, start off as, or quickly become, abusive, that I also support a group like NAMBLA—which I do. But that’s because I feel one of the largest factors in the abuse is fostered by the secrecy itself and lack of social policing of the relationships.

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#62
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just know that if you support Delany you're supporting the sexual abuse of children. “I read the NAMBLA [Bulletin] fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I’ve ever found. I think before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about. What the issues they are really talking about, and deal with what’s really there rather th…

Is "support" always transitive? To support someone is necessarily to support everything they support? What does "support" mean, anyway? To read and enjoy a book by him necessarily means I'm "supporting" everything he has ever supported, including in the past? Why would it work that way? (This is not meant to say anything either way on whether Delany "supports the sexual abuse of children". I suppose that's another tr…

Take NAMBLA out of the equation and Delany is still a man who promotes that man/boy sexual relationships aren't intrinsically abusive and should not be criminalized. There's nothing transitive about that.

He has not changed that opinion, nor is he ever going to. And yes, if you support his work then I'm going to look at you funny, just like if you had a painting by a certain German politician on your wall - and that goes double when you try to dissemble what his beliefs actually are.

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#63
Very strange to see this now. I'm reading through Dhalgren currently. Bought it in a second-hand bookshop 15 years ago and never started reading it, and just 3 weeks ago picked it up from my shelf on a whim. Been reading it during my commutes to/from work.

A few random thoughts.

Wow, I didn't know Nova is about to be an Amazon series scripted by Gaiman. That's very impressive. I listened to it as an audiobook 8 years ago and really liked it. I hope they wouldn't ruin it completely, but I feel the novel has enough good parts that even a maimed and partial interpretation would be good.

I'm not yet finished with Dhalgren, but I'm very near the end. Reading the last part has been a slog. I'm very impressed with the language and the descriptions and the philosophy and the self-referential nature of the book, and the Delany keeps me reading even when the plot is quite thin and nothing really interesting happens. But on the whole the actual reading experience is boring, especially towards the end.

It kind of reminds me of someone who has just veered/discovered a lifestyle which they previously thought was extreme (and/or outside societal norms, or rather the societal norms they were raised with), was shocked, culturally and personally, and wants to share his shock with the rest of the world, maybe as a sort of a coping mechanism. Like some born-again religious tend to be very extreme and devout and proselytize religion. So does Delany, or at least his authorial voice, tend to go on and on about gay sex, homoeroticism, sexual fantasies and deviancies, abnormal behavior, etc. Also, self-referential plots, unreliable narrators. This gets tiring after a while.

Dhalgren's language has a strange effect on my mind. After a session of reading parts of it, my brain stays for a while in this strange inner loop where everything I see is described in the same floral, poetic language as the book, where little details in the world around me are important. It goes away after I talk for a while with people or answer emails, as if my mind is reset back to "normal" discourse.

I read Triton back when I was 20. I feel it had a huge influence on me, but I can't point out exactly how. Like if I'd never read it, would my life be different somehow? I don't know. I did pick my username in my very first post to an online message board, back in the mid-90's, from Triton. So there's that.

I think it's a shame that Delany hasn't written more science fiction, or fantasy, although after reading this article I understand why.

I personally find some of his views and writing to be repulsive. It should be fairly obvious which ones. I would never read Hogg or anything in that vain. Although personally I didn't find Dhalgren repulsive fwiw. I think. I'm still glad his works were written and are available. I think that as a society we need them, even if they are repulsive for me personally. And him, of course.

"Black Harlem speech and white Park Avenue speech are very different things" – from the article. Yes, that's very present in Dhalgren. The language veers between highly literate, erudite English, and street-level language. And even inside those two there are different variations of regional accents, cultural accents...

This is something that also speaks to me, personally. When I was growing up, I read a lot, and had a stutter. One of the reasons for it (in addition to some social anxiety) was the cognitive dissonance between my friends' and family spoken language, and the vocabulary and idioms of the written word. At times about every second sentence I wanted to utter would be censored immediately by a part of my brain, as being inappropriate and too literary for the person I was talking to.

Later in life, I met enough people from different walks of life, listened to them, and I was able to imitate them and their speech enough to be able to move back and forth rather effortlessly between different styles of speech.

Strangely enough, I see a similar pattern in my younger son. He has just started reading a lot of books, after some years of refusing to read much, and his spoken language has suddenly ballooned, has become a lot more erudite and refined. He doesn't seem to have the same problem as me though, he is still able to use the same language level near his friends. None of them read much, if at all.

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "support" always transitive? To support someone is necessarily to support everything they support? What does "support" mean, anyway? To read and enjoy a book by him necessarily means I'm "supporting" everything he has ever supported, including in the past? Why would it work that way? (This is not meant to say anything either way on whether Delany "supports the sexual abuse of children". I suppose that's another tr…

Take NAMBLA out of the equation and Delany is still a man who promotes that man/boy sexual relationships aren't intrinsically abusive and should not be criminalized. There's nothing transitive about that. He has not changed that opinion, nor is he ever going to. And yes, if you support his work then I'm going to look at you funny, just like if you had a painting by a certain German politician on your wall - and that…

This is pretty funny. Rail against browser boss Brendan Eich on HN for his anti gay marriage donations - all good. Rail against LGBTQ writer Samuel Delany on HN for his child rape advocacy - not good. Separation of art and artist, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, downvotes, etc.

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take NAMBLA out of the equation and Delany is still a man who promotes that man/boy sexual relationships aren't intrinsically abusive and should not be criminalized. There's nothing transitive about that. He has not changed that opinion, nor is he ever going to. And yes, if you support his work then I'm going to look at you funny, just like if you had a painting by a certain German politician on your wall - and that…

This is pretty funny. Rail against browser boss Brendan Eich on HN for his anti gay marriage donations - all good. Rail against LGBTQ writer Samuel Delany on HN for his child rape advocacy - not good. Separation of art and artist, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, downvotes, etc.

I’m sad that I’m not more surprised than I am.

I hypothesize that the negative response of a surprising number of readers is due to tripping some kind of pro-LGBTQ+ support mental programming rather than their taking a principled stand in favor of advocating the rape of little boys. Nevertheless whether it’s a principled stand or a knee jerk reaction, anyone who experiences a negative emotional response to opposing child rape, same sex or otherwise, has a serious problem and should get help.

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#66
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just know that if you support Delany you're supporting the sexual abuse of children. “I read the NAMBLA [Bulletin] fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I’ve ever found. I think before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about. What the issues they are really talking about, and deal with what’s really there rather th…

Is "support" always transitive? To support someone is necessarily to support everything they support? What does "support" mean, anyway? To read and enjoy a book by him necessarily means I'm "supporting" everything he has ever supported, including in the past? Why would it work that way? (This is not meant to say anything either way on whether Delany "supports the sexual abuse of children". I suppose that's another tr…

"if there's a [X] at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 [X]"

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting with Section 7 "the Plague Journal" on page 723 the single narrative splits into multiple streams on the same page, there are gaps in all of the streams, and finally on pages 831-32 there is this "My life here more and more resembles a book whose opening chapters, whose title even, suggest mysteries to be resolved only at closing. But as one reads along, one becomes more and more suspicious that the author h…

> Sometimes I could tease out the connection but not always. I think that was Delaney's intention. The narrative, and the city aren't really open to analysis. Bellona is a hazy, druggy, liminal space and its incoherence and narrative instability is part of what makes it so beautiful.

So it's not complex or particularly difficult to read, but it is opaque, incoherent, self-contradictory, and intentionally incomplete. We don't agree on everything but we have discovered some common ground.

Re: Samuel R. Delany Reimagined Sci-Fi, Sex, and the City

#68
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just know that if you support Delany you're supporting the sexual abuse of children. “I read the NAMBLA [Bulletin] fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I’ve ever found. I think before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about. What the issues they are really talking about, and deal with what’s really there rather th…

A lot of authors are deeply problematic. That doesn't mean you can't like their work unless a) their problematic views are baked into their work or b) they profit off their work and use that profit as a platform for their horrible views. Neither is the case here.

Read Hogg. Or better yet don't. But yes his horrible views are baked into his work.
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