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Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

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Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#61
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This decision made no sense to begin with since Again, if Congress wanted to fix this, they have the authority. The decision simply said they have not yet actually done so.

I'm trying to understand if the people saying "congress can just fix this" every time the supreme court makes a ruling, a) Don't agree that congress is blocked and is never going to pass anything. b) Care more about the legalities than the issues themselves, and so don't really care about whether there is a plausible way through congress. c) Are making a cry for help for everyone to come together to fix congress. Hop…

None of the above.

e) stop complaining about the Supreme Court rulings going against their desire, and complain to Congress instead.

You have a subtext in all your options that gates all your options on what (a person thinks) should happen. For example "whether there is a plausible way through congress".

None of your options simply leave that concept entirely out. The reality of a law simply does not care on what you feel the law should be.

I see it all the time people complain "if you rule this way then xyz will happen", which is so completely irrelevant I don't see why they even mention it. A ruling is based on what IS passed not what output you want.

Legislature on the other hand is all about what SHOULD be the result.

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#62

and the president because what one can take away, another can regrant. All Biden needs to do is go "actually no these are all protected again".

US law does not function like this. Federal agencies are authorized to operate under authorizing law passed through Congress. A president can only direct an agency to allocate resources to do something under existing law (Executive Orders are not new law, they are instructing an agency to enforce or not enforce existing law). Agencies are given some latitude in how to create Rules that function under the authorizing Law, but they aren't Law.

If the Supreme Court says they don't have authorization under an existing law, Congress needs to pass new law that authorizes them to regulate it. President cannot direct them to write a rule to cover a condition it is not authorized to cover.

This issue also gets a bit more complicated since states could also file suit and escalate to the supreme court again that federal government should not have powers to regulate certain bodies of water inside the states. I don't know how this ruling will affect any new legislation that may get passed.

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#63

I'm all for protecting true wetlands, but I'm aware of a specific instance in my county where a 'wetland' is nonsense. My friend owns rural property that was once mined for coal (not surface mining). He has sinkholes on his property from the former mine shafts. There is a sinkhole that straddles his property line with his neighbor and this sinkhole is from a former mine shaft. The sinkhole has never been filled in an…

Sounds like a wetland to me. You can argue that artificially created wetlands shouldn't qualify for protection but that doesn't seem obvious to me.

Reasonable people can debate weather or not a sinkhole filled with water is a wetland. The EPA overstretched it’s authority and calls these things navigable waterways and that’s what this lawsuit is about.

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#64
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This decision made no sense to begin with since Again, if Congress wanted to fix this, they have the authority. The decision simply said they have not yet actually done so.

I'm trying to understand if the people saying "congress can just fix this" every time the supreme court makes a ruling, a) Don't agree that congress is blocked and is never going to pass anything. b) Care more about the legalities than the issues themselves, and so don't really care about whether there is a plausible way through congress. c) Are making a cry for help for everyone to come together to fix congress. Hop…

> c) Are making a cry for help for everyone to come together to fix congress. Hoping that if things get bad enough, people will finally wake up and get congress working again.

If we try to rely on the Supreme Court to fix things without fixing congress, the Supreme Court is going to become way more dysfunctional too.

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#65
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress shouldn't have to constantly pass laws just to tell the executive branch that they are abusing their powers. That's what the judiciary is for. My uncle has a small stream running through his back yard, counted as "navigable water" despite the fact that I could jump across it as a child and it wasn't deep enough to support anything but a paper boat. I'm also not saying we shouldn't have protections for the en…

> That's what the judiciary is for. Right, and the judiciary has 45 years of precedent that the wetlands are included. This radicalized illegitmate SCOTUS just threw out the protections because their corporate owners benefit from it.

The whole point of a supreme court is to set precedent, as they have with many other decisions that you probably like, like Brown v. Board of Education and Obergefell v. Hodges.

Besides, laws matter. If you want something done, you have to pass a law. If you don't have the votes, then go do the work and convince more people to vote with you.

Edit: it actually wasn't set precedent from the supreme court anyway. The previous decision was split and was sent back down to the lower court, before being settled:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapanos_v._United_States

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#67
Which states? State-level corruption varies widely in mining and extraction from obsequious duplicity to open full-service facilitation. This is all about money from the climate-change denial, omnicidal fools who believe an unlivable planet would still be survivable with a pile of money.

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#68
post #17

The recent decision didn’t so much “strike down” the protections, but rather ruled that the relevant law does not apply to the wetlands the EPA used to apply it to. There was previous ruling, which according to SCOTUS, was erroneous, and so it reversed it. This is perfectly reasonable if you look at the original law and intent behind it, and the wetlands the federal agency no longer can claim control over. The origin…

> Now, I believe that federal government could actually argue that the random wetlands actually can be under its jurisdiction, if they affect the water in other states, eg. through ground water flows etc. However, they will need to pass a new law to assert that, instead of leaning on old law that clearly did not mean to cover this. You can also raise the counterpoint here: 45 years of precedent says they're included,…

> 45 years of precedent says they're included

Not quite.

As recently as in 2006, Rapanos decided "the CWA’s use of 'waters' encompasses 'only those relatively permanent, standing or continuously flowing bodies of water ‘forming geographic[al] features’ that are described in ordinary parlance as ‘streams, oceans, rivers, and lakes.’"

Also: "More recently, the agencies have engaged in a flurry of rulemaking defining 'the waters of the United States.' In a 2015 rule, they offered a muscular approach that would subject 'the vast majority of the nation’s water feature' to a case-by-case jurisdictional analysis. Although the rule listed a few examples of 'waters' that were excluded from regulation like '[p]uddles' and 'swimming pools,' it categorically covered other waters and wetlands, including any within 1,500 feet of interstate or traditional navigable waters. And it subjected a wider range of other waters, including any within 4,000 feet of indirect tributaries of interstate or traditional navigable waters, to a case-specific determination for significant nexus.

The agencies repealed this sweeping rule in 2019. Shortly afterwards, they replaced it with a narrower definition that limited jurisdiction to traditional navigable waters and their tributaries, lakes, and 'adjacent' wetlands. They also narrowed the definition of '[a]djacent,' limiting it to wetlands that '[a]but' covered waters, are flooded by those waters, or are separated from those waters by features like berms or barriers. This rule too did not last. After granting the EPA’s voluntary motion to remand, a District Court vacated the rule."

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-454_4g15.pdf

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, I believe that federal government could actually argue that the random wetlands actually can be under its jurisdiction, if they affect the water in other states, eg. through ground water flows etc. However, they will need to pass a new law to assert that, instead of leaning on old law that clearly did not mean to cover this. You can also raise the counterpoint here: 45 years of precedent says they're included,…

Congress shouldn't have to constantly pass laws just to tell the executive branch that they are abusing their powers. That's what the judiciary is for. My uncle has a small stream running through his back yard, counted as "navigable water" despite the fact that I could jump across it as a child and it wasn't deep enough to support anything but a paper boat. I'm also not saying we shouldn't have protections for the en…

> constantly ass laws just to tell the executive branch they are abusing their powers.

Nobody is suggesting that. The basic argument is if both the executive and the judiciary misinterpret a law for decades then it’s the legislative branch’s job to correct that “misunderstanding” not the judiciary. This is why it’s called a common law, past court cases clarify the rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

When president exists it’s the judiciaries job to maintain the status quo not to arbitrarily change the rules after it’s already made up its mind, unless there is some clear conflict. The fundamental principle at play is if the judicial branch can flip flop arbitrarily then president is meaningless and everything can be relitigated endlessly.

Edit: There’s many sources of conflict even without changes to the law as lower courts should be self consistent but there’s independence between them. Which might seem strange but creates some redundancy as consistent rulings reinforce precedent while conflicting rulings invite intervention by a higher court.

Re: Half of US wetlands lost federal protection. Their fate is up to the states

#70
In my job, I’ve gotten some pretty detailed experience with this part of the Clean Water Act.

Not mentioned in this article is the fact that the “substantial nexus” standard just rejected by the Supreme Court was ridiculously vague, and the process by which landowners could determine whether there existed a “substantial nexus” between wet-ish areas on their property and navigable waterways was ridiculously slow and uncertain. (But with potentially huge civil and even criminal penalties to those who guessed wrong.)

The process, in recent years: first you hire an specialized wetlands consulting firm whom you pay many thousands of dollars to compile a document that argues, in highly technical language, that no substantial nexus exists. You submit this “Request for Jurisdictional Determination”, which may run more than 100 pages long, to the Army Corps of Engineers. They respond whenever they get around to it. Maybe six months later you get an answer. More often than not, they claim jurisdiction, and then you have to file for an Army Corps dredge/fill permit that might take another six months to be issued.

Note that complaining about this painful process doesn’t imply a belief that waterways shouldn’t be protected. There are other land use restrictions (think: local zoning restrictions or FEMA flood plain building code restrictions) that are often very stringent, but at least their application is CLEAR. In most cases, a property owner or prospective buyer can determine the property’s zoning and flood plain status in five minutes by examining the relevant maps online.

No such clarity has existed regarding the location of Waters of the United States under the CWA. Hopefully this ruling will lead to a more clear-cut situation.

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