In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop • Hacker News Board

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#61

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Mar 01, 2012, 2:50 AM UTC

batista wrote: post #58

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only true if you define "rich" as "I have a lot more than you." If you define rich to mean "I have way more than I will ever need" then there is ultimately no reason that everyone can't be rich. It just takes a while to get there. Personally I'd prefer the latter. Eliminating poverty makes everyone better off.

That's only true if you define "rich" as "I have a lot more than you." If you define rich to mean "I have way more than I will ever need" then there is ultimately no reason that everyone can't be rich. It just takes a while to get there. The problem I described is multi-faceted, and I might not have made a good job at it, or some people might not have understood me (judging from the knee-jerk downvotes). One issue is…

I just don't see that this is what we are currently approaching with automation, etc, but rather huge poor masses and an middle class in decline.

Can you support claim with some facts?

Note that in our current society, it is easily possible to be both richer than the 1970's middle class (in absolute terms) and live a life of leisure. We apply the label "poor" to people who do this, but that's just an arbitrary label.

...beyond the basics, "needs" are themselves a social construct.

Yes, this is the game played by most people who complain about the "middle class in decline" or "increasing poverty". They increase the definition of "middle class" more rapidly than the living standards of the middle class actually increased, and then whine when reality hasn't met their artificial benchmark.

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#62

Post by philwelch » Thu, Mar 01, 2012, 4:52 AM UTC

MBlume wrote: post #53

philwelch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs provide more than income, they also help with self-esteem and prevent idleness, which in turn keeps things like crime down. I think useless make-work jobs are ultimately more feasible than guaranteed income for those reasons.

> prevent idleness, which in turn keeps things like crime down This, this right here is exactly the kind of puritan thinking I find infuriating. Seriously, leisure as a terminal negative term in your utility function?! Never mind the people who are going to use the time to learn, to create art and share it, to spend time with their families -- if we don't shackle people to their counters and desks, they'll be rioting…

Having been quite the slacker, I assure you there are massively diminishing returns to leisure time, unless you turn it into work. If you don't get anything done, you feel worthless. Maybe 20 hours a week is enough, but no work at all isn't good for you. Rioting in the streets is exactly what the welfare class of Britain did mere months ago.

Art and study could certainly be more heavily subsidized, though. But I would count those as types of work.

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#63

Post by artsrc » Thu, Mar 01, 2012, 4:52 AM UTC

lnanek wrote: post #19

Just because he prefers to buy online doesn't mean other people do. Google tried to sell phones online and it just didn't work, for example...

Currently there is a complex and non-transparent pricing for phones purchased bundled with a service. This is used maximize profit share, disguise cost and create market power etc.

Google tried to challenge this model. This has nothing to do with whether people buy from brick and mortar stores or online.

I bought my phone online disentangled:

    http://www.clove.co.uk/

But I could have bought it online entangled:

    http://www.virginmobile.com.au/shop

There are many things where I currently prefer buying online. And others where I prefer brick and mortar. The online stores are getting better more quickly than the brick and mortar stores.

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#64

Post by hariis » Thu, Mar 01, 2012, 6:48 PM UTC

mdasen wrote: post #20

This somewhat assumes that the purpose of universities is to gain knowledge useful to employers. While that might be a purpose of it, universities are also screening mechanisms. This is something by people in educational economics. While I think the author has a great point that we're looking to get workers who can get the job done, that isn't necessarily how businesses hire. The benefits from education don't just co…

You are right, Universities provide that "appeal" but going forward, that won't matter anymore. Things just will change as people start realizing that that is shallow and start placing importance on gaining knowledge itself. The appeal then would be, how much you know, your expertise rather than where you went to school at. It is evolving and will continue to accelerate and the state of the economy will act as a catalyst. IMO.

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#65

Post by batista » Thu, Mar 01, 2012, 7:35 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #61

batista wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only true if you define "rich" as "I have a lot more than you." If you define rich to mean "I have way more than I will ever need" then there is ultimately no reason that everyone can't be rich. It just takes a while to get there. The problem I described is multi-faceted, and I might not have made a good job at it, or some people might not have understood me (judging from the knee-jerk downvotes). One issue is…

I just don't see that this is what we are currently approaching with automation, etc, but rather huge poor masses and an middle class in decline. Can you support claim with some facts? Note that in our current society, it is easily possible to be both richer than the 1970's middle class (in absolute terms) and live a life of leisure. We apply the label "poor" to people who do this, but that's just an arbitrary label.…

>> I just don't see that this is what we are currently approaching with automation, etc, but rather huge poor masses and an middle class in decline.

> Can you support claim with some facts?*

Well, but how about just looking around you? Because arguing for obvious facts gets tiresome after a while.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/17/disturbing-statistics...

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-class-i...

http://www.businessinsider.com/22-statistics-that-prove-the-...

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/30-statistics-th...

Yes, this is the game played by most people who complain about the "middle class in decline" or "increasing poverty". They increase the definition of "middle class" more rapidly than the living standards of the middle class actually increased, and then whine when reality hasn't met their artificial benchmark.

It's not a game --it's how society works. Definitions change according to the social reality. Would you consider YOURSELF middle class if you only had access to what a '50's middle class family had? A 1920's one?

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#66

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 1:49 AM UTC

batista wrote: post #65

yummyfajitas wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't see that this is what we are currently approaching with automation, etc, but rather huge poor masses and an middle class in decline. Can you support claim with some facts? Note that in our current society, it is easily possible to be both richer than the 1970's middle class (in absolute terms) and live a life of leisure. We apply the label "poor" to people who do this, but that's just an arbitrary label.…

>> I just don't see that this is what we are currently approaching with automation, etc, but rather huge poor masses and an middle class in decline. > Can you support claim with some facts?* Well, but how about just looking around you? Because arguing for obvious facts gets tiresome after a while. http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/17/disturbing-statistics... http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-clas…

According to your third link, the household wealth of the bottom 40% grew by 157% between 1989 and 2001, and the middle 20% had their wealth grow by 200%.

The majority of your links focused solely on relative measures, not absolute ones (i.e., the incomes of the poor grew more slowly than the rich).

Want to try again?

Would you consider YOURSELF middle class if you only had access to what a '50's middle class family had? A 1920's one?

Hmm, ok, I'll choose my own arbitrary definition of middle class - it involves flying cars, robots and spaceships. No one meets my definition in the present era. In contrast, 20 years ago, when I defined "middle class" as stone knives and bear skins, everyone in the US was middle class.

Oh no, we are all so poor, something must be done!

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#67

Post by rms » Sun, Mar 04, 2012, 11:19 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #62

MBlume wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prevent idleness, which in turn keeps things like crime down This, this right here is exactly the kind of puritan thinking I find infuriating. Seriously, leisure as a terminal negative term in your utility function?! Never mind the people who are going to use the time to learn, to create art and share it, to spend time with their families -- if we don't shackle people to their counters and desks, they'll be rioting…

Having been quite the slacker, I assure you there are massively diminishing returns to leisure time, unless you turn it into work. If you don't get anything done , you feel worthless. Maybe 20 hours a week is enough, but no work at all isn't good for you. Rioting in the streets is exactly what the welfare class of Britain did mere months ago. Art and study could certainly be more heavily subsidized, though. But I wou…

Agreed with parent that this is basically a Puritan attitude. This idea that one creates self-worth via work is not anything like a cultural absolute. One of my favorite things about Balinese culture is that they don't have the idea that poverty is vice.

Re: In the Future Everything Will Be A Coffee Shop

#68

Post by philwelch » Sun, Mar 04, 2012, 8:44 PM UTC

rms wrote: post #67

philwelch wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been quite the slacker, I assure you there are massively diminishing returns to leisure time, unless you turn it into work. If you don't get anything done , you feel worthless. Maybe 20 hours a week is enough, but no work at all isn't good for you. Rioting in the streets is exactly what the welfare class of Britain did mere months ago. Art and study could certainly be more heavily subsidized, though. But I wou…

Agreed with parent that this is basically a Puritan attitude. This idea that one creates self-worth via work is not anything like a cultural absolute. One of my favorite things about Balinese culture is that they don't have the idea that poverty is vice.

Maybe it's a Puritan attitude, but is it wrong? Who cares about cultural universals; if the Balinese are happier as impoverished slackers, live and let live.