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From word models to world models

arxiv.org

61–70 of 119 posts

Re: From word models to world models

#61

It's a surprise to see a paper actually try to solve the problem of modelling thought via language. Nevertheless, it begins with far too many hedges: > By scaling to even larger datasets and neural networks, LLMs appeared to learn not only the structure of language, but capacities for some kinds of thinking There's two hypotheses for how LLMs generate apparently "thought-expressing" outputs: Hyp1 -- it's sampling fro…

Failing on "trivial alterations to the same underlying domain" is a not a disproof of thought.

Your argument also implies hyp1 and 2 are exclusive, clearly both can be true, and in fact must be true, unless you are claiming that you do not "sample" from similar language to express your own thoughts? Where does your language come from then, if not learning from previous experience?

Re: From word models to world models

#62
Was excited for a moment, thought it was related to this https://worldmodels.github.io/.

World models are meant to be for simulating environments. If this was something like testing if a game agent with llm can form thoughts as it play through some game it would be very interesting. Maybe someone on HN can do this?

Re: From word models to world models

#63
post #62

Was excited for a moment, thought it was related to this https://worldmodels.github.io/ . World models are meant to be for simulating environments. If this was something like testing if a game agent with llm can form thoughts as it play through some game it would be very interesting. Maybe someone on HN can do this?

"Hush hush, I'm gonna sacrifice the queen to do a surprise checkmate!" Agent said

Re: From word models to world models

#64
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just seems like an unfounded hot take. Of course we can explain most of our knowledge, skills, and thoughts in words, that's how we don't lose everything when the next generation comes around lol. It's the core reason we're different from animals. Now sure you can't describe qualia, but that's basically a subjective artefact of how we sense the world and (to add another unfounded hot take) likely not critical to…

> Of course we can explain most of our knowledge, skills, and thoughts in words, that's how we don't lose everything when the next generation comes around lol. I would wager if you put a newborn human to be raised in the absence of any physical human contact, but somehow taught them to read/write, and gave them access to a universal corpus (text only, no audio/video), or heck, even internet access with `curl`, and la…

Sure. Reading about colors will tell you nothing about them until you can see a depiction of them attached to their names. Same with all the other senses.

Re: From word models to world models

#65

World modeling is impossible without sensory input. You need constant modeling of touch/smell/vision/temperature, etc. These senses give us an actual understanding of the physical world and drive our behavior in a way that pure language will never be able to.

A facsimile of sufficient equivalence to the world models we derive from our 5 senses may be approached through derivation of descriptive language only. "sufficient equivalence" is important because sure it may not _really_ know the color of red or the qualia of being, but if for all intents and purposes the LLM's internal model provides predictive power and answers correctly as if it does have a world model, then wh…

That's not how physics works. We understand the world by interacting with it. How do you know your internal model is right until it is tested in reality?

Re: From word models to world models

#66

I doubt that word models can lead to world models. To quote Yann LeCun: "The vast majority of our knowledge, skills, and thoughts are not verbalizable. That's one reason machines will never acquire common sense solely by reading text." https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1368235803147649028

That just seems like an unfounded hot take. Of course we can explain most of our knowledge, skills, and thoughts in words, that's how we don't lose everything when the next generation comes around lol. It's the core reason we're different from animals. Now sure you can't describe qualia, but that's basically a subjective artefact of how we sense the world and (to add another unfounded hot take) likely not critical to…

I disagree that this is an "unfounded hot take". It's far from a rare opinion on cognitive science, and if I had to guess it's probably the mainstream opinion (I can't really back that up with citations because I haven't followed the field closely in the last decade). And for what it's worth, I agree with Yann, although I have to admit that LLMs work far better than I would've guessed.

It's a topic that's too large for an HM comment, but "explaining" things in words comes after the fact, and mostly limited to a small subset of our experience and skillset that is amenable to it.

Note that humans are animals too, btw. And conversely, I would consider nonverbal people as humans as well.

Re: From word models to world models

#67
post #62

Was excited for a moment, thought it was related to this https://worldmodels.github.io/ . World models are meant to be for simulating environments. If this was something like testing if a game agent with llm can form thoughts as it play through some game it would be very interesting. Maybe someone on HN can do this?

Check out https://voyager.minedojo.org/, which uses a LLM to play Minecraft.

Re: From word models to world models

#68
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Redness is not in the structure of those sentences. Sure; it's in the spectrum of reflected light. (Or perhaps, the retina's trichromal responsivity). But that physical concept can be meaningfully described by sentences. It doesn't require an infinite number of them to create a coherent world-model, which can do things like predicting that a blue object will become red if it moves away from you at a high enough spe…

> that's no guarantee that the LLM will be able to compress it efficiently Your LLM here is 600MB which is a grossly inefficient compression of the sort space. If LLMs "learned algorithms", the best compression would be on the order of bytes. The python to generate this list is c. 1kb -- and you're using an obscene 600MB to do it! What do you think all those MBs are doing? They're the extraordinary cost of the "stati…

> If LLMs "learned algorithms", the best compression would be on the order of bytes.

Yes. Except:

(1) the model size is fixed during training, it would be impossible to obtain a bytes-sized result regardless of what it learns to represent. One might even open the thing up and find bubblesort* inside followed by 599 MB of junk DNA; that size is dictated by how it was initialized.

(2) I'm not claiming this model is a minimal size; I started with the biggest model I could train on my wimpy GPU and succeeded on my first and only try, which I think is a fairer representation of how GPT-4 was built than if I'd started by proving the minimum size of transformer that could represent the task** and then (surprise!) obtained it.

(3) Compared with the size of a map of all 10^80 unique input lists to all 10^36 correctly-corresponding sorted outputs, 600 MB is a remarkable compression ratio, even if it's not reducing it all the way down to exec("sort(input)").

(4) Nowhere do I make any claim that transformers are minimal or even space-efficient representation of an algorithm (or a world-model); in fact, they seem quite terrible in this respect, especially compared to arbitrary code. And doubtless there are a bunch of weights that got trained to near-zero and could be trimmed to make the matrices more sparse, or quantized, which is the kind of thing people do to compress an LLM itself but I didn't bother. What transformers do seem to do very well at, despite the overhead, is the differentiability that allows them to be trained in the first place, and also the flexibility to handle different kinds of problems. I could have trained the same blank-slate starting model to one that shuffles or reverses each list, or perhaps to do one or the other depending on whether the first number is odd or even, or any number of other tasks.

> You're showing the system vast amounts of numbers being sorted, so it learns the distribution of that data, so it can replay those sorts.

It's almost definitely the case that every list it's tested on, and sorts 100% correctly, is a list it has never seen in training (unless it's a very short list, but I control for that). My training dataset is only about 100 MB; given the number of random lists, it's vanishingly unlikely that it's seen almost any of them, let alone the 100% of them that it is able to sort correctly. (The tests, of course, were not drawing from the validation set either; I test the model by generating new lists on the fly, because that's easy to do).

> statistically approximate the empirical distribution of the training dataset structure

Can you provide more details about what you mean by this distributional structure that can be compressed without a generally-correct sorting algorithm? How would you define a similarity measure between distinct random lists that allows for this kind of interpolation?

* Well, probably RASP-sort, not bubblesort. Also, it would need to include definitions of things like the comparison operator between all tokens, because it doesn't have a numeric datatype built in, or even the idea of numbers as an ordered set; it has to learn all that.

** (the Weiss paper does this, and lo and behold, transformers can indeed sort).

Re: From word models to world models

#69

It's a surprise to see a paper actually try to solve the problem of modelling thought via language. Nevertheless, it begins with far too many hedges: > By scaling to even larger datasets and neural networks, LLMs appeared to learn not only the structure of language, but capacities for some kinds of thinking There's two hypotheses for how LLMs generate apparently "thought-expressing" outputs: Hyp1 -- it's sampling fro…

"Trivial to show" as in it's trivial to show that addition on uint8 doesn't work ie. 250+250?

Re: From word models to world models

#70
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just have to be chosen such that the distribution Xc,Xp is sufficiently small in the training data -- but not that the tokens of Xp are themselves rare Great idea. Now prove you can actually choose such a distribution, lol.

I think this is easy, just make Xp sentences of the kind = "I define `randomchars()` to be this `term-in-Xc()`" and swamp the dataset with Xc. Everything here actually just follows formally from what NNs are: they're just empirical function approximations. It will always be the case that they just model the probabilistic structure of the dataset and not the data generating process. Since, in language, there are discr…

> I think this is easy, just make Xp sentences of the kind = "I define `randomchars()` to be this `term-in-Xc()`" and

`randomchars()` does not match your own requirement `but not that the tokens of Xp are themselves rare` and therefore is unsuitable.

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