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Re: undefined

#61

Post by kwhitefoot »

echelon wrote: post #37
asow92 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. And I'd posit that learning CS theory and fundamentals like binary shouldn't be too difficult if the individual is savvy enough to grok the finer points of Python.

I dislike this perspective. I taught myself programming at age 12, well before undergrad. If I'd been forced to learn binary before I could make websites and games, I would have given up. I might have even avoided programming forever. I think the very first thing someone should learn is the fastest path to build something that interests and delights them. Theory can come later, when they're ready to appreciate it.

Don't you learn about number bases in maths lessons in school in the US? We did that in the late 60s in England.

Re: undefined

#62

Post by echelon »

asow92 wrote: post #47
echelon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike this perspective. I taught myself programming at age 12, well before undergrad. If I'd been forced to learn binary before I could make websites and games, I would have given up. I might have even avoided programming forever. I think the very first thing someone should learn is the fastest path to build something that interests and delights them. Theory can come later, when they're ready to appreciate it.

You could have made learning binary a game. Learning binary isn't difficult and should only take a few days to a week of lecture to grasp a sufficient understanding.

> should only take a few days

This doesn't work for everybody!

Let people learn in the direction that interests them. The highest energy reward function first.

Once they feel rewarded, then let them learn theory. They'll have a deeper appreciation and the stamina to press deeper.

Re: undefined

#63

Post by tensor »

joshmanders wrote: post #12
l__l wrote: post #7

> Today's developers didn't learn binary before learning Python, why should you learn how to code without the most modern tools? This phrasing makes me wary. There's a difference between being self-taught, and not even bothering to teach yourself the absolute fundamentals of computing, like binary...

Learning binary and knowing what binary is are two separate things. I don't think you need to learn binary to learn to code. Been doing this for 25 years working at some big name companies, I don't know binary other than 1 is on, 0 is off. I'm starting to feel like this whole notion that newbies can't come in and learn say React or modern JavaScript without having to go all the way back to that day in 1995 when they…

I've literally had to use knowledge of binary and number representation just last month in order to implement a lower level protocol. You may not use it in your simple CRUD app jobs but it's absolutely not "some old thing people only had to use back in the day."

Re: undefined

#64

Post by tensor »

Solvency wrote: post #55
hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand the hurdle to "learning binary". It's not necessary to understand how binary works to complete a hello world program, but I think it's something that you want to get a handle on pretty quickly. If I recall correctly, we only spent a few minutes on it in a larger lesson about different schemes for representing numbers in Comp Sci I. I don't think I've performed binary arithmetic since that cl…

It's good to know how to eat healthy, avoid processed foods, maintain healthy sleep patterns, avoid PUFAs, maintain strong mind-muscle connection in the body, communicate effectively and succinctly and empathetically with others, and many other life skills as well. And they'd all make you a heathier, happier, more robust, performant human. Which translates to better productivity. Better code. So, should this new prog…

Honestly, learning binary isn't something that will take any significant amount of time. This is not a tradeoff you need to make.

Re: undefined

#65

Post by LoganDark »

WoodenChair wrote: post #56
joshmanders wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning binary and knowing what binary is are two separate things. I don't think you need to learn binary to learn to code. Been doing this for 25 years working at some big name companies, I don't know binary other than 1 is on, 0 is off. I'm starting to feel like this whole notion that newbies can't come in and learn say React or modern JavaScript without having to go all the way back to that day in 1995 when they…

> Learning binary and knowing what binary is are two separate things. I don't think you need to learn binary to learn to code. Been doing this for 25 years working at some big name companies, I don't know binary other than 1 is on, 0 is off. You're wearing your lack of CS knowledge like some kind of badge of honor. Of course you don't need deep CS knowledge to be a competent programmer. But almost undoubtedly you'll…

Why are you talking about CS and nonexistent "problem solving related to binary"? By "knowing binary" we are not talking about knowing machine code instructions or the details of how they are executed, but literally knowing how to read and work with binary numbers (using bitwise operations). Which isn't necessary for problem-solving or implementing most algorithms.

(Yes, there are algorithms that use bitwise operations. They're technically expendable and it doesn't make you any less of a programmer not to know everything. Especially if you're using Python or JavaScript!)

Re: undefined

#66

Post by mynameisvlad »

Kalium wrote: post #59
mynameisvlad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your own admission you have never used the knowledge you learned. Why exactly is it “good to know how it works” if you literally have never used that knowledge? Why is it “something you want to get a handle on pretty quickly” if you don’t touch binary? Are there places where it would come up? Most certainly. Is it required learning for every single dev out there? Highly debatable.

I've certainly benefited from knowing about floating point error. I likely would have spent a lot of time confused about why certain kinds of math kept coming out wrong without know about the underlying representation of floats, how it results in error, why this tradeoff is good for most scenarios, and other options. The problem is that this is the sort of foundational knowledge that isn't easily gained through the l…

> It's probably not obvious to most people who don't already know about it that their computer can handle numbers wrong.

0.1+0.2=0.30000000000004 is not obvious? When a floating point error happens, it’s quite plainly obvious. At that point, someone would look up a SO article like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/588004/is-floating-point... and learn about it. And from there, FPE mitigations.

Would you get to the mitigations faster if you knew binary? Sure, the first time you ever hit it. But that seems to be bottom of the barrel optimization, IMO.

Re: undefined

#67

Post by joshmanders »

tensor wrote: post #63
joshmanders wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning binary and knowing what binary is are two separate things. I don't think you need to learn binary to learn to code. Been doing this for 25 years working at some big name companies, I don't know binary other than 1 is on, 0 is off. I'm starting to feel like this whole notion that newbies can't come in and learn say React or modern JavaScript without having to go all the way back to that day in 1995 when they…

I've literally had to use knowledge of binary and number representation just last month in order to implement a lower level protocol. You may not use it in your simple CRUD app jobs but it's absolutely not "some old thing people only had to use back in the day."

> You may not use it in your simple CRUD app jobs but it's absolutely not "some old thing people only had to use back in the day."

My point is that most jobs are simple CRUD app jobs or positioning divs on a screen, not deep seeded CS stuff.

Re: undefined

#68

Post by causi »

joshmanders wrote: post #12
l__l wrote: post #7

> Today's developers didn't learn binary before learning Python, why should you learn how to code without the most modern tools? This phrasing makes me wary. There's a difference between being self-taught, and not even bothering to teach yourself the absolute fundamentals of computing, like binary...

Learning binary and knowing what binary is are two separate things. I don't think you need to learn binary to learn to code. Been doing this for 25 years working at some big name companies, I don't know binary other than 1 is on, 0 is off. I'm starting to feel like this whole notion that newbies can't come in and learn say React or modern JavaScript without having to go all the way back to that day in 1995 when they…

I didn't know there were computer nerds who can't at least count in binary.

Re: undefined

#69

Post by cultofmetatron »

Solvency wrote: post #55
hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand the hurdle to "learning binary". It's not necessary to understand how binary works to complete a hello world program, but I think it's something that you want to get a handle on pretty quickly. If I recall correctly, we only spent a few minutes on it in a larger lesson about different schemes for representing numbers in Comp Sci I. I don't think I've performed binary arithmetic since that cl…

It's good to know how to eat healthy, avoid processed foods, maintain healthy sleep patterns, avoid PUFAs, maintain strong mind-muscle connection in the body, communicate effectively and succinctly and empathetically with others, and many other life skills as well. And they'd all make you a heathier, happier, more robust, performant human. Which translates to better productivity. Better code. So, should this new prog…

I mean, you definitely Should be doing all that. 2 hours at the gym + suppluments + cutting out processed food + getting at least 150 grams of protein a day + drinking purified water have all contributed significantly to keeping my brain active and capable at 38.

Re: undefined

#70

Post by tester756 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #49
tester756 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll argue - bitwise operations, they're fundamentals too, but If you arent working close to hardware, then for example doing bitwise operations may be really rare. I don't think I've met a problem that required them even once during my first few years as SE. I've had CS degree and years of experience and I werent proficient with those, I needed to write it down in steps and then I started working closer to hardware…

Boolean logic is close to bitwise operations and it is the knowledge without which nobody should dare to call themselves a software engineer.

is close, yet no the same.

There's difference between "do you understand this if ladder" or "can you simplify this boolean expression"

and "clear bits 3, 25, 26, 27 of this register and set bits 25, 26, 27 to value 0b101"

I'm not saying that this is hard or something, just the 3rd thing is really rare unless you work close to hardware or some other specific tasks

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