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The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

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Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#61

Post by dmix »

psychphysic wrote: post #36
Scarblac wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia was in control of the dam, had mined it, and had in recent weeks let water levels go up to unprecedented levels. Something like 80 settlements will be completely inundated, the largest nuclear power plant in Europe loses its cooling reservoir and attacks over the river will be impossible for weeks. I don't think Ukraine did it. (getting information from the thread in /r/worldnews).

If it wiped away defences it'd be more than worth it and Ukraine is now more than capable with its Shadow Storm missiles which UK provided just for this kind of attack. It's a very bold move and if intentional it could be pivotal in this conflict.

Cruise missiles don't win wars like this. It requires land forces crossing and holding territory. The narrower parts of Dnipro was the easiest path to doing that in the south.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#62

Post by dmix »

fbdab103 wrote: post #55
dmix wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe forcing a mechanical failure provides more plausible deniability than simply blowing it up? It also makes it easier to repair considering it's still a valuable source of water for Crimea.

Easier to repair? Did you see the pictures? Not an engineer, but that looks like they will have to tear down whatever is still standing and rebuild from scratch.

Yeah after seeing the video I don't think it makes much difference if it was explosives or not. Nevermind :)

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#63

Post by MrOwnPut »

timeon wrote: post #58
dehrmann wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> shifting blame game No need for game: if Russia did not invade, this would not happen.

That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism.

And if previous actions justify later actions then the US shouldn't have meddled in 2014.

Thus "no need" to blame Russia, the US is responsible.

In reality, things are much more nuanced than that logic.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#64

Post by stargazer-3 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #21
nate_meurer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scorched earth retreats are also a time-honored Soviet and Russian military strategy.

I'd love to read an expert source on that, if you have one.

A dam on the same river was blown up by retreating Soviet troops in WW2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-w...

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#65

Post by actuator »

deanCommie wrote: post #10
tivert wrote: post #8

So: 1. What side does this help? 2. How does this action help that side?

Benefits the Russians who have been dealing with a Ukranian counter-offensive, and commentators have been wondering if Ukraine would attempt to cross the Dnipro and mount a counter-offensive to cut Crimea off from the mainland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE is a great visualization of why that task is basically impossible now.

Footage coming out in the last two days showed heavy Ukraine armour losses, so I am not sure whether this is necessarily because Russians were on backfoot. The overflow would be higher towards South so it will hurt Russian defensive preparations more once the water has receded.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#66

Post by wkat4242 »

baybal2 wrote: post #14
hackandthink wrote: post #4

Is this a deliberate flooding to stop troops? Like the dutch did: https://neverwasmag.com/2016/07/how-the-dutch-would-flood-th...

No, it's a scorched earth tactic, in preparation to abandoning Crimea. Without this dam, Crimea will be without water for at least next 3 to 5 years after Ukraine recaptures it.

I really doubt they will abandon Crimea. Russia has a huge naval base there. That's the last thing they'll give up.

Flooding the area would make it much harder to cross for the Ukraineans though.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#67

Post by wtallis »

wolverine876 wrote: post #40
mantas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no significant drinking water source in Crimea. And this was the dam directing water to Crimean water channel. Not sure what other credible source you may want.

> Not sure what other credible source you may want. I'm a little confused: You did not provide any source. You're not obligated to provide any, but I don't understand your comment.

FYI, it stops looking like innocent questioning when you put more time and effort into repeating the question in multiple places than into looking up the answer yourself. If you think someone is wrong, then be forthright about that, and consider whether addressing the lack of adequate sourcing is still necessary after you've made a real contribution to the conversation. In a topic like this one, people can reasonably make very different assumptions about what is "common knowledge" that doesn't need full citations every time it's mentioned.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#69

Post by wkat4242 »

coconut_crab wrote: post #13
tivert wrote: post #8

So: 1. What side does this help? 2. How does this action help that side?

- settlements on river banks will be swept away - the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe, ZNPP, won't be restarted due to lack of cooling - Crimea will lost access to fresh water - First line of defence for both sides are swept away. - it will be harder for Ukraine side to mount an amphibious assault So it's a lose-lose situation for everyone.

I'm kinda happy for that power plant not to be restarted though.

It's much better for it to be in a shutdown state if it finds itself in the middle of combat again. I know Ukraine needed the power but it getting damaged could cause problems far beyond Ukraine. One Chernobyl was enough. But I hope it has enough cooling water to cool its storage reservoirs.

All the other effects are terrible of course :( And all favour Russia.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#70

Post by ChoHag »

MrOwnPut wrote: post #63
timeon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shifting blame game No need for game: if Russia did not invade, this would not happen.

That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism. And if previous actions justify later actions then the US shouldn't have meddled in 2014. Thus "no need" to blame Russia, the US is responsible. In reality, things are much more nuanced than that logic.

No it's very simple.

If Russia didn't invade, Russia wouldn't be killing people and blowing up their stuff.

Russia's actions are Russia's responsibility, not America's.

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