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The Never Married, a New Normal

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Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#61

Post by falcolas »

jitl wrote: post #10

My partner and I have been together for 7 years, we bought a house together, haven’t found a compelling reason to get married. Marriage is a complex and binding contract that for two high earners is a tax disadvantage. The most prominent benefits I’ve learned are some situations around visitation rights, and avoiding being compelled to testify against your spouse. It comes from a very dubious history of the husband e…

One benefit I feel towards being married: those visitation rights. I’ve seen others refused entrance alongside their partners in the hospital, and it’s a heartbreak I’ve never had to experience myself.

I also appreciate how I have a partner against this world, legally and emotionally.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#62

Post by gameman144 »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #53
throwaway1492 wrote: post #49

I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. By choosing to get married and intentional build a family, I knew I was sacrificing a lot of ego and choosing to give…

How much of that was making the marriage official or just committing to a long-term partner? I know someone who was with their partner for years, and has been engaged for years more. I've come to the understanding they'll likely never actually marry. They appear to just want some negotiated commitment. Actual marriage appears to carry strings they're reluctant to accept. (Funds appear to be kept separate as well.)

I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally.

A negotiated commitment takes a specific form (the terms of the negotiation) but a marriage defines a commitment to be committed. I've heard some folks of my generation say things like "we got divorced because we fell out of love", which sharply contrasts with my view of marriage and falls more in line with a standard committed relationship.

To me, a marriage is a commitment to consistently try to fall back in love and work through things, even at those points you might otherwise quit.

Granted, I'm a religious guy and my view on marriage is flavored from that perspective, but making the marriage official was certainly key to the commitment for me personally.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#63

Post by kitsunesoba »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #25
kitsunesoba wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because of all of this that I've for many years felt a need to have all my ducks in a row before even considering dating with the intention of starting a serious long-term relationship, let alone getting married. No judgement towards anybody with different feelings — everybody's situations differ — but I'd feel like I was irresponsibly leading on the partner in question if I weren't financially reasonably prepar…

In general I'd agree, yet now that I married later and had kids later I think I waited too long. Emotional maturity can come with age and yet some younger folks with more experience or better mentors were years ahead of me. Sometimes I wish there were pre-child counseling focused on helping parents strategize before they're pregnant -- or at least before children are born. Regardless, folks need to do the math, espec…

Yeah, it can be frustrating trying to strike a balance with all the factors involved. It'd help a lot if there weren't biological clocks ticking, slowly degrading both energy and reproductive capacity…

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#64

Post by dubeye »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #59
vinyl7 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because its kinda frowned upon for a man to bail and leave the mother and children to fend for themselves.

Father's don't have to get officially married to stay with the mother or support the children.

No but it's much easier for a father to avoid supporting their child and family, if not married. It's not black and white of course, but to some degree, if you are not married, you are likely to find it easier to spend less money on the family

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#65

Post by giantg2 »

35997279 wrote: post #33
giantg2 wrote: post #8

"In fact, most never-married individuals come to see me for help dealing with parents or family members who insist that they live a more conventional lifestyle, not because they are unhappy with their choice of marital status, a lot of married people cannot say the same." That took an unexpected, refreshing, turn. It seems to me that the legal system around marriage is outdated and flawed compared to societal norms t…

> It truly baffles me how alimony is even legal today. Based on how alimony is treated, marriage is essentially indentured servitude. The US has no guaranteed parental leave. If you have a kid and want one parent to spend any significant time with that kid, someone is sacrificing their career advancement. This usually hits women harder. If you want to see the end of alimony, you’d need to make it easier to choose to…

This seems very biased to me since it's often that both parents make career sacrifices, not just one.

Even if we accept what you're saying, that still doesn't address why this should be legal. You even say "want", so it is a choice. There's absolutely no reason that an able-bodied person of sound mind can't support themself. The state forcing another person to pay for that person's higher standard of living is absurd.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#66

Post by paulryanrogers »

bckr wrote: post #44
mkl95 wrote: post #24

I wonder if it relates to the decline in fertility in the last few decades. Is having kids a motivation for marriage? Could it be the other way around?

I think it has more to do with the decline in religiosity in the US. Why get married? Typically there’s a wedding. That’s a ceremony involving you, your partner, both partners’ family and friends, and a religious and/or civic authority. You’re throwing a big party saying “we are committed to each other”. When you’re very religious, this is required to become partnered and accepted as an adult in the community. When y…

> I'd be interested in a ceremony celebrating a commitment to cohabitation and partnership that sheds the baggage of a wedding and marriage.

Especially if it didn't involve renting a venue, 25% mark ups, hurt feelings from non-invited folks, decades of expectation building, and an industrial complex focused on money extraction.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#67

Post by paulryanrogers »

dubeye wrote: post #64
paulryanrogers wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Father's don't have to get officially married to stay with the mother or support the children.

No but it's much easier for a father to avoid supporting their child and family, if not married. It's not black and white of course, but to some degree, if you are not married, you are likely to find it easier to spend less money on the family

Child support applies regardless, unless it's an unusual adoption situation. Are you referring to alimony or something else?

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#68

Post by jeroenhd »

giantg2 wrote: post #8

"In fact, most never-married individuals come to see me for help dealing with parents or family members who insist that they live a more conventional lifestyle, not because they are unhappy with their choice of marital status, a lot of married people cannot say the same." That took an unexpected, refreshing, turn. It seems to me that the legal system around marriage is outdated and flawed compared to societal norms t…

Alimony is essential in cultures and marriages where one person gets to make a career for themselves and the other does the household chores, takes care of the children, and so forth.

It's also essential in places where having a child severely decreases your chances of making a career for yourself. Think places where there's no guaranteed parental leave, or where there's only one parent who gets parental leave (making them much less desirable for employers).

There are plenty of cases where these restrictions aren't relevant (i.e. same sex partners (no gender discrimination) without children (no childcare obligations) both making careers), but those cases are a small minority of all the marriages that break up.

I agree that the way many alimony laws work is outdated, but they vary wildly and are there for good reason.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#69

Post by paulryanrogers »

gameman144 wrote: post #62
paulryanrogers wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of that was making the marriage official or just committing to a long-term partner? I know someone who was with their partner for years, and has been engaged for years more. I've come to the understanding they'll likely never actually marry. They appear to just want some negotiated commitment. Actual marriage appears to carry strings they're reluctant to accept. (Funds appear to be kept separate as well.)

I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally. A negotiated commitment takes a specific form (the terms of the negotiation) but a marriage defines a commitment to be committed . I've heard some folks of my generation say things like "we got divorced because we fell out of love", which sharply contrasts with my view of marriage and falls more in li…

Having known unhappily married and religious family (and leaving the faith myself), I can understand folks falling permanently out of love. And IMO they're likely better apart than locked in decades of fruitless trying.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, and I'd agree that a frivolous marriage sounds like a pointless exercise.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#70

Post by giantg2 »

mattpallissard wrote: post #34
giantg2 wrote: post #8

"In fact, most never-married individuals come to see me for help dealing with parents or family members who insist that they live a more conventional lifestyle, not because they are unhappy with their choice of marital status, a lot of married people cannot say the same." That took an unexpected, refreshing, turn. It seems to me that the legal system around marriage is outdated and flawed compared to societal norms t…

> process that typically costs as much as each party buying a car, and takes months or years to complete Isn't that the nature of the beast? When you get married everything is easy; you're happy and cooperating. When you're getting divorced you're upset and fighting. If everything was ended amicably without lawyers you'd only be out a few hundred bucks.

"If everything was ended amicably without lawyers you'd only be out a few hundred bucks."

But that's not even possible. Even the people I've known who split amicably still required lawyers. This goes back to the asymmetrical legal aspects of getting married vs dissolving one. You don't need to draw up a contract, disclose assets, or anything when getting married. You just adopt the standard contract as defined by the government. When divorcing, you are required to disclose assets, have property assessed, you need to split up the assets, and work out child care/cost details. You could likely work out a lot of this, but in general you still need a lawyer to make sure the agreement checks all the legal boxes. Then the state needs to approve it. Even if both parties agree, the state may not allow you to make certain agreements if they don't like it, or they think it's no longer fair (prenup). There are even law firms that offer amicable divorce services - they still cost thousands of dollars.

Even if you could file yourself, it costs about 10x the cost to get a marriage license.

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