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The XY Problem (2014)

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Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#61

Post by FeepingCreature »

relix wrote: post #8

I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…

Also enraging: finding X answers for your YY problem on Google searches for Y.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#62

Post by FeepingCreature »

pishpash wrote: post #46
JdeBP wrote: post #21

Mark-Jason Dominus was the root cause of the "XY" name, inadvertently. I, Raymond Chen, Charles Cazabon, and Eric S. Raymond didn't use that name at all. A lot of people foolishly chose to go with "XY", because they thought that what we were saying was silly. I even had bloody foolish people on Stack Exchange complain that I wasn't using the sensible name "XY", when I was one of the people who wrote about this stuff…

[flagged]

> Using chocolate-covered bananas to integrate European currency systems is a metaphorical scenario, so let's explore it creatively.

> Remember, this creative exercise is not a practical strategy for integrating European currency systems

Sounds like it XYed you.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#64

Post by MereInterest »

CipherThrowaway wrote: post #32

IMO the XY problem problem eclipsed the XY problem in significance a while ago. Q&A communities are full of useless XYsplaining that pollutes search results with non-answers. If you know the answer to someone's question, and you want to be helpful and informative, then simply answer it. Follow your answer with "why do you need this btw? there might be a better approach" when appropriate. This is Example 1 from the OP…

I think the best way to avoid the XY problem problem is to give two answers. First, stating the short answer to the assumed question, then the long answer to the explicit question.

So, if somebody asks how they can access private member variables in C++, the first answer would say how to avoid needing to in the first place, and the second answer would say to buckle up because it’s time for the fun world of undefined-but-sometimes-useful behavior.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#65

Post by permo-w »

matsemann wrote: post #25
relix wrote: post #8

I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…

I'm sorry, but if people often do this to you, maybe reflect on them actually being right? Or that you're legitimately asking a stupid question given your self-proclaimed lack of expertise? People don't answer that way to be smug or so. They do it because the thankless person they're spending their own free time helping will just come back with a new asinine question the moment one answers their posed question. It's…

the general gist of what you’re saying is fair, but I’m extremely sceptical of the claim that there’s no smugness involved. these kinds of forums are full to the brim with smug, vindictive assholes who can’t wait to point out how silly and misguided you are. in my experience there’s no correlation between your propensity towards helping people online and a positive disposition

in fact there are definitely people who, if they aren’t helping as an excuse to be rude in the first place, feel it’s okay to be rude because they’re helping. you get this offline too. Gordon Ramsey is a good example

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#66

Post by edude03 »

My biggest frustration when asking for help is somewhat similar problem where others offer solutions that sound simplier but are more complicated in practice for example

Me: I'm having an issue setting up a feature in kubernetes

Foo: use bash instead it's much simpler and you can solve your problem with one setting

Me: ah ok, let me tell my team of 70 devs we're uninstalling kubernetes and writing our own orchestrator in bash because Foo on IRC says it's simpler

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#67

Post by skohan »

matsemann wrote: post #25
relix wrote: post #8

I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…

I'm sorry, but if people often do this to you, maybe reflect on them actually being right? Or that you're legitimately asking a stupid question given your self-proclaimed lack of expertise? People don't answer that way to be smug or so. They do it because the thankless person they're spending their own free time helping will just come back with a new asinine question the moment one answers their posed question. It's…

Did you reflect on the case that actually you might be the smug one in this scenario, assuming that every person who asks a question doesn’t know what they are talking about, and you know better than them?

I have experienced this many times, and it’s extremely frustrating, when people ask for the context, and I answer something to the effect of:

> the context is quite hard to explain but I assure you I thought through this question and this is precisely what I need to know

And people will still insist that you don’t know what you are talking about and this must be an XY problem.

Even in the case that someone might be wondering down the wrong path, it’s more valuable for the community to let them make their own mistakes and learn from them. That’s how we become experts, not from blindly trusting the “authority” of people who spend a lot of time earning karma on Stack Overflow.

I think it’s good to answer a question in the form: “this seems like a strange question because X, but here is the answer”. It’s also fine to ask for context.

But it’s quite arrogant to harass someone into providing context until you are satisfied they are solving a problem in a way you deem worthy. If you don’t like the question you’re free to not engage with it.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#70

Post by kps »

JdeBP wrote: post #21

Mark-Jason Dominus was the root cause of the "XY" name, inadvertently. I, Raymond Chen, Charles Cazabon, and Eric S. Raymond didn't use that name at all. A lot of people foolishly chose to go with "XY", because they thought that what we were saying was silly. I even had bloody foolish people on Stack Exchange complain that I wasn't using the sensible name "XY", when I was one of the people who wrote about this stuff…

You can probably have the name back for that problem.

The Stack Overflow XY problem and resulting XY problem problem are different:

1. Someone is assigned to accomplish task Y

2. … within an established project based on facility X.

3. There is a sub-task of Y, say Z, for which X is ill-suited.

4. They come into the group and ask ‘how can I use X to accomplish Z?’

with responses that amount to ‘get a different job.’

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