Live data from Hacker News

Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

mw.lojban.org

61–70 of 145 posts

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be terrible. Ideographic written languages are hard to learn (you need to memorize much more to get basic skills) and hard to parse (tokenization is more difficult). Of course, if that means the entire world speaks the same language, the price would be worth it. But I doubt we will converge on anything that is difficult to master, since water takes the path of least resistance.

That's not actually true. When MacArthur tried to get rid of the use of Chinese characters in Japanese writing during the post-WW2 occupation, he backed off when it was embarrassingly pointed out that Japan had a higher literacy rate than the US, despite having less of an investment in state schools at the time. Studies have shown that it does not take more time or effort for a child to learn to read and write Chines…

> it does not take more time or effort for a child to learn to read and write Chinese or Japanese (assuming those are their native spoken languages) than for an American student to learn to read/write English.

As alphabetic orthographies go, English is almost uniquely horrible, though, so that's hardly surprising. Have they tried comparing to e.g. Spanish?

And yes, when we read with a practiced eye, we do pattern match entire words at once. But it's much easier to get to that point with a simpler, composable writing system - and the advantage of the alphabet (or a syllabary) is that you can still read everything before you get there, just slower. And that's just the reading part - the advantages of a decently phonemic alphabet or syllabary for writing are even more blatant.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#62
post #14
post #3

I like this point very much: "You can be as vague or detailed as you like when speaking lojban. For example, specifying tense (past, present or future) or number (singular or plural) is optional when they're clear from context.". LMBTQ movement has came into my mind immediately. I think they would have more success by introducing a new, 'don't care about your sex' pronoun to the language instead of adding a third one…

They/them already exists and have centuries of use for that use-case. The people objecting to that are just as likely to object to an entirely new one. There also are already multiple "neopronouns" [1], and they are frequently ridiculed by those taking issue with "unexpected" (to them) pronoun use). This is also not a new debate, with variants (other than singular they) being in use in limited contexts since the late…

You'd be surprised. I've met people with preferred pronouns like xe who were outright offended at the use of they/them, because "that's not my pronoun".

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#63
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you could get the intended result for any language with a simple ruleset. You don't need a language to reduce/eliminate miscommunications, you need intent and understanding.

This is kinda what we call "legalese". It's a sort of formalized subset of English (or whatever language) that leans on standardized turns of phrase, it tends to set up definitions for terms that are then used throughout a document, etc. All in order to reduce misunderstanding and (hopefully) be easy to interpret in the event of a dispute. However, we have whole judicial systems that spend a non-trivial fraction of t…

I think that when law is introduced the consequences are not clear so the small print is used to introduce modifications to the rules, so the problem is about adapting a rule to the everyday use of it.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#64
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you could get the intended result for any language with a simple ruleset. You don't need a language to reduce/eliminate miscommunications, you need intent and understanding.

This is kinda what we call "legalese". It's a sort of formalized subset of English (or whatever language) that leans on standardized turns of phrase, it tends to set up definitions for terms that are then used throughout a document, etc. All in order to reduce misunderstanding and (hopefully) be easy to interpret in the event of a dispute. However, we have whole judicial systems that spend a non-trivial fraction of t…

I suspect for clarity of communication we'd need to start with clarity of thought - the reason legalise doesn't eliminate ambiguity is because people aren't effectively omniscient, regardless of the level of their training. Add to that a shifting environment (new considerations etc) which can make previously valid documents ambiguous and you have a recipe for difficulties.

tl;dr cognitive ambiguities and changing circumstances are what make this hard, not language as a medium

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#65
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it so hard, and why hasn't anybody done it before? The whole problem seems trivial to me. You need a language where > - first you need your words to have only one meaning There's your answer. There is no such language, there are no such words. It's questionable if it's even possible - to me, it sounds like a category error. "Words" aren't keys in a hash table, and "meaning" isn't a discrete thing. > now you…

I still don't get it. In the linguistic part the only problem is to make to word->object mapping unambiguous. And it is trivial problem. If the world is fuzzy (i don't think so) then is not a problem in linguistics. Yet linguists seem to aim for a language that eliminates ambiguity (see TFA). Where am I wrong?

theoretically you can introduce new words to be more precise, for example eskimos have many words for snow, from (1) that is because they use polysynthesis: a base word is attached to many different suffixes which change its meaning. So, while in the English language we might have a sentence describing snow, fusional languages such as the Eskimo-Aleut family will have long, complex words.

So, you may solve the ambiguity problem by introducing a huge numbers of words, that could help a LLM, but humans need a relatively small vocabulary tailored to everyday use. So the tradeoff is reducing ambiguity and not increasing a lot the vocabulary.

(1) https://readable.com/blog/do-inuits-really-have-50-words-for...

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#66
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My email is in my profile. OK, I’ll email you if you want to continue this discussion elsewhere. > https://champollion.hosting.nyu.edu Looks interesting… where should I start reading? > If I am correct in this assessment, then the next logical step from a conlang/auxlang perspective is: can we build a direct, unambiguous spoken grammar for this universal semantics framework? If so, then we will have achieved what L…

Oh I'm happy to continue this conversation here, although it's late where I am and I'll be going to bed soon, and HN threads are ephemeral. Feel free to email me if you'd like to actually collaborate on this. > Looks interesting… where should I start reading? IIRC he did some graduate summer schools that were recorded online and have attached lecture notes. Those plus the referenced papers would be a good place to st…

> for every dog there exists at least one barking event with that dog as the acting subject

Just to wrap my head around your definition of universal and unambiguous here. If the language cant nail down the definition of dog to something all parties agree on, would the claim still be unambigous?

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#67

Bah now I'm going to have to give up learning other languages, Klingon and Esperanto, to learn this. Qapla! Mi prenos mian capelon!

Honestly if you're tempted to learn one of these universal languages then I'd suggest going all-in on SolReSol[1]. At least if you get bored of speaking it, you can instead paint it, or play it on a trumpet.

[1] - https://i.sidosi.org/resources/grammar-of-solresol/grammar-o...

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#68
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LMBTQ movement has came into my mind immediately. I think they would have more success by introducing a new, 'don't care about your sex' pronoun to the language instead of adding a third one that just complicates matters. I thought it was more of a pro-caring thing than a pro-uncaring thing. Those focusing too much on the latter are really quite good at bumbling into insulting behavior...

Slippery slope fallacy here. Why should I care if my online customer is he/she/they as long as they pay the price? Or if I talk about technology through the Internet? All I want is effective communication with no insults.

In many languages you are obligated to care whether a table is a he or a she.

In English you are obligated to care whether it's a table or the table.

I'm all for languages with optional caring about stuff.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#70

I like the idea of Lojban. I hate the implementation. It’s basically spoken math notation for predicate logic, which falls flat well short of the goal. There are much better logical frameworks that have been developed for computational semantics (e.g. Davidsonian event semantics). Lojban’s formalism was out of date already when it was proposed as Loglan half a century ago. If there is anyone out there who likes the i…

You might like another language called toaq (toaq.net) which is a tonal logical conlang, it has probably the nicest looking writing system I’ve seen
Post reply on HN