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Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

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Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#61
post #23
post #13

One of the big problems is that controlled burns can and do become uncontrolled burns. The largest ever wildfire in New Mexico was started as a planned burn (more honest label) just last year. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/05/2...

Of course, this is discussed in the article.

It should be addressed in the headline. Controlled burns can prevent wildfires. There, I fixed it.

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this just generalizes to the recurring problem of individualism vs collectivism. Government regulation is the answer, but it's not being applied efficiently here

I don't think that's it. I think it's more a consequence of democracy versus autocracy. An autocracy could make these trade-offs without political consequence. Of course, autocracies come with other profound challenges. Most I think agree that a benevolent dictator produces the best outcomes. The problem is that human benevolence is fickle, and subject to interpretation -- invariably leading to violence.

My 2 cents is that all 3 of you are right. There's an aspect of culture in the US which leads us to being very, very litigious. Call it "get rich quick" mentality, or "I got mine". The huge numbers of lawyers helps, but I think the causal relationship is the other way - that the number of lawyers in this country increased to meet demand.

Of course a consequence of democracy is as you way - there are political consequences to unpopular (but necessary) actions, making such measures unpalatable for any but a second term president.

But we surely have navigated politically unpopular initiatives before, for the greater good of the nation. See: Civil Rights Movement.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-kin...

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#64

This illustrates a more generic problem with our legal system. When the option for positive action to mitigate a problem exists, we often don't do it because the action creates legal liability for any and all negative externalities of the action, even if the negative externalities as a whole are drastically less than what would happen doing nothing. We resist permitting prescribed burns because when they cause uninte…

> This illustrates a more generic problem with our legal system.

I feel that this better illustrates the downsides of centralized power: centralized decision making won’t be as efficient as decision making done at the nodes, closer to the actual problem because of missing context and data; and maybe even indifference

For the record, I am not saying that there are no benefits to centralized planning and control. This is just one of its weaknesses besides corruption

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#65
Along the North Eastern coastal regions of North America the predominant biome before European settlers began colonizing the region in earnest was the oak savanna: an ecological system dependent on fires. After those settlers arrived they took steps to prevent those fires from affecting their towns and inadvertently by clearing land for farming. The result are forests that are choked with under brush, mass migrations of animals, the spread of parasitic insects, etc. Completely changed the character of the region.

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#66

This illustrates a more generic problem with our legal system. When the option for positive action to mitigate a problem exists, we often don't do it because the action creates legal liability for any and all negative externalities of the action, even if the negative externalities as a whole are drastically less than what would happen doing nothing. We resist permitting prescribed burns because when they cause uninte…

That's right. The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics is baked into our legal framework.

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#67
I spent some time talking about this with a family member that works in forestry. My takeaway was that the core issues are 1) it's labor intensive and expensive to manage the burns, beyond what we have budget for now, 2) there's a liability+harm issue to work through (e.g. when a burn will necessarily put a lot of smoke into an inhabited area how do you manage that), and 3) the combination of climate change and many years of fire suppression mean that doing the burns safely is harder than it was say 50 years ago. It's really a political issue, that is to get broad support to spend more and have worse quality of life for a while in order to get the situation under control and in much better shape a decade down the line. Tough sell.

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#68

This illustrates a more generic problem with our legal system. When the option for positive action to mitigate a problem exists, we often don't do it because the action creates legal liability for any and all negative externalities of the action, even if the negative externalities as a whole are drastically less than what would happen doing nothing. We resist permitting prescribed burns because when they cause uninte…

While you're not wrong, the issue from the article is about a local issue, not necessarily with the legal system.

In some places, proscribed burns are routine. Just not in the place that the article is about.

Heck, the Chicago Parks District does proscribed burns in Lincoln Park, which is a very urban location.

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#69
post #29

This illustrates a more generic problem with our legal system. When the option for positive action to mitigate a problem exists, we often don't do it because the action creates legal liability for any and all negative externalities of the action, even if the negative externalities as a whole are drastically less than what would happen doing nothing. We resist permitting prescribed burns because when they cause uninte…

Another example is how many people advocated for (and how many countries essentially adopted) letting covid spread throughout the population (either like wildfire or via "flatten the curve") to get natural herd immunity because letting a poorly understood (but known to be quite deadly) virus spread through the population was doable but giving out vaccines that hadn't been through phase 2 trials wasn't.

Was preventing the spread of covid throughout the population possible once China failed to contain the virus? Can you name one country that managed to do that? Even China eventually gave up.

Re: Controlled burns can prevent wildfires; regulations make them nearly impossible

#70

This illustrates a more generic problem with our legal system. When the option for positive action to mitigate a problem exists, we often don't do it because the action creates legal liability for any and all negative externalities of the action, even if the negative externalities as a whole are drastically less than what would happen doing nothing. We resist permitting prescribed burns because when they cause uninte…

The medical analogy here is the DNR order. Doctors don't want to create liability by explicitly assisting in a patient's death, even of someone in a vegetative state. So instead, they avoid this liability while still "accomplishing death", by following an order to intentionally avoid explicitly reversing any sudden "act of god" event that would cause the patient to die without active intervention.

Or, to put that another way: instead of controlled burns where you're actively setting the fire, why not just build (and maintain) the firebreaks, wait for a wildfire to happen inside the burn zone, and then just refuse to put it out?

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