Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 85 posts

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#61

Post by easytiger »

SECProto wrote: post #50
easytiger wrote: post #16

Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why?

> Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why? Every individual action "contributes practically nothing to global CO2", so with this argument, nothing should ever be done. But this is a strawman argument regardless: globally,…

> * Europe will subsidize initially*

Not charging levies and taxes is not providing a subsidy.

These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life.

It's all laughably irrelevant anyway. In 2021 China estimated >1,000 million tonnes of steel (and that doesn't count the steel they finance in other countries). EU: 152 million.

> And the whole point of all of this is to "internalize the externalities"

This childishly reductive paradigm of victimhood in relation to every macro and microscopic element of western life is a noose around our necks.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#62

Post by [deleted] »

realityking wrote: post #34
goatlover wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The climate doesn’t care about per capita. The developing world has the majority of the population, so the majority of additional CO2 will be coming from there.

In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. If we believe that every country has the right to develop, than the poorest countries emission will increase. Better technology will flatten that increase but those are expensive. Wealthy countries pioneering the widespread use of…

[deleted]

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#63

Post by penneallagricia »

ognarb wrote: post #15
ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

[flagged]

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#64

Post by imtringued »

easytiger wrote: post #61
SECProto wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why? Every individual action "contributes practically nothing to global CO2", so with this argument, nothing should ever be done. But this is a strawman argument regardless: globally,…

> * Europe will subsidize initially* Not charging levies and taxes is not providing a subsidy. These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life. It's all laughably irrelevant anyway. In 2021 China estimated >1,000 million tonnes of steel (and that doesn't count the steel they finance in other…

>These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life.

There is a part of the balance sheet that you aren't looking at that is presenting an existential threat. A higher bill for energy isn't an existential risk.

>This childishly reductive paradigm of victimhood in relation to every macro and microscopic element of western life is a noose around our necks.

It's called actions having consequences. If costs and benefits aren't properly accounted for, then you get market failure.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#65

Post by ZeroGravitas »

itishappy wrote: post #46
spacebanana7 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. Being charitable, it’d clearly be an environmental disaster if everyone in the world consumed oil at the per capita level of OECD countries. I imagine global oil consumption would multiply manyfold. > Wealthy countries pioneerin…

From my understanding, China's implementation rate for solar was still quite low. Would that not support the point that they're progressing the tech to sell to other countries?

Implementaion rate for solar is low but growing fast everywhere, but China is leading in production, deployment and generation beating the USA and EU combined.

> China was responsible for about 38% of solar PV generation growth in 2021, thanks to large capacity additions in 2020 and 2021. The second largest generation growth (17% share of the total) was recorded in the United States, and third largest in the European Union (10%).

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#66

Post by euroderf »

zokier wrote: post #25
ognarb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

> The Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism will apply to imports across several sectors, including steel and aluminum, forcing them to respect EU environmental standards. It will come into effect in 2026 or 2027. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2022/12/13/eu-...

The EU should have had something like this to apply to imports from the USA a long time ago. But, better late than never. Play nice with Biden.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#67

Post by WeylandYutani »

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

Not having heavy industry means less pollution. China has serious environmental issues. Which costs you money in the long run.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#68

Post by WeylandYutani »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #5
ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

They've made commitments, at least enough to convince Europe and the US that they are working on it... but whether they will spend more than $5.20 on enforcement, I doubt. Far more fun and strategic to let the US and EU do what they do and shout "We're with you!" from the sidelines. China also makes 80% of the world's solar panels, so we shouldn't pretend that China convincing the US to decarbonize doesn't have some…

The CCP is dedicated to social stability. China has a long history of environmental disasters causing political unrest.

Being a democracy is actually bad for taking action on this issue. The Republicans are still denying climate change.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#69

Post by WeylandYutani »

easytiger wrote: post #61
SECProto wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why? Every individual action "contributes practically nothing to global CO2", so with this argument, nothing should ever be done. But this is a strawman argument regardless: globally,…

> * Europe will subsidize initially* Not charging levies and taxes is not providing a subsidy. These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life. It's all laughably irrelevant anyway. In 2021 China estimated >1,000 million tonnes of steel (and that doesn't count the steel they finance in other…

I live in the Netherlands. Climate change is an existential threat to my way of life.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#70

Post by CogitoCogito »

penneallagricia wrote: post #63
ognarb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

[flagged]

What makes you believe the free market would lead to decreased usage in dirty steel?
Post reply on HN