Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Has Apple sounded the last POST?

eclecticlight.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 75 posts

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#61

Post by lloeki »

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

I just happen to have read Asahi Linux's description of the boot process on Apple Silicon yesterday, and I would disagree: indeed the tl;dr would be that it seems that components are highly segregated and unable to communicate with each other, for security and trust reasons.

IIUC this translates to the inability for a hypothetical POST stage to access anything to perform something resembling an actual POST, and even if it did, it would be unable to transmit any result to the later stage.

https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Introduction-to-Appl...

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#62

Post by lelanthran »

doctor_eval wrote: post #14
userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

I'm the opposite. I see all that junk on a PC booting and I think to myself, well, what happens if one of those tests fail? I'm gonna reboot. And if it keeps failing, I'll take it to a shop. If I take a Mac to the Apple store, they will run their in-house diagnostics and tell me what's wrong. If I take a PC to the PC store, they will run their own diagnostics and tell me what's wrong. So what benefit does this messy…

> So what benefit does this messy POST give me?

For you? Nothing. For a significant number of people? A lot.

You would rather remove the helpful messages because "messages makes my computer unpretty", than simply ignore them?

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#63

Post by lostlogin »

rjzzleep wrote: post #57
stephen_g wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tend not to upsell you much at the Apple Store… Last time one of my MacBooks was well and truly stuffed, they ended up eventually just giving me a new laptop that was four years newer (it was the Nvidia graphics chip fault in the 2011 MacBook Pro, before the official repair program started. They tried replacing the logic board twice but when the second one failed they just swapped the laptop for a brand new 2015…

Official apple support vastly differs depending on the country, so in terms of service US support seems to vastly more friendly and lenient than most other countries.

Here in New Zealand we have The Consumer Guarantees Act. It says something like ‘things should last an amount of time commensurate with their cost.’

You’ll easily get a MacBook or iPhone fixed by Apple for faults in the first 2 years. You’ll also pay a premium, but that’s what happens when you're at the far end of the world.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#64

Post by doctor_eval »

lelanthran wrote: post #62
doctor_eval wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the opposite. I see all that junk on a PC booting and I think to myself, well, what happens if one of those tests fail? I'm gonna reboot. And if it keeps failing, I'll take it to a shop. If I take a Mac to the Apple store, they will run their in-house diagnostics and tell me what's wrong. If I take a PC to the PC store, they will run their own diagnostics and tell me what's wrong. So what benefit does this messy…

> So what benefit does this messy POST give me? For you? Nothing. For a significant number of people? A lot. You would rather remove the helpful messages because "messages makes my computer unpretty", than simply ignore them?

Well, “significant number” is nevertheless a tiny minority.

Making computers accessible and non threatening to everyone is important. Filling the screen with acronym soup advances neither of these goals. Instead of people thinking “I can do this”, they think computers are hard.

Also, minimising what I’m saying by using diminutive language - “messages makes my computer unpretty” - is lazy. Good design is important, even if you don’t see it.

The obvious solution is to make these messages visible to those who want it, but disabled by default.

I thought that’s how Macs used to work, but maybe I’m thinking of a MacOS boot mode.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#65

Post by bakugo »

Dalewyn wrote: post #54
jjav wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. > and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take i…

>That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Pretend you're a common man, you're Joe Schmoe: Is it worth your while to learn, know, and care about all the intricacies of how a computer (and specifically a Mac) boots? And even if you do, is it worth your while to learn, know, care, and have on hand the means necessary to fix a co…

[flagged]

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#66

Post by the_third_wave »

sonofhans wrote: post #53
jjav wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. > and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take i…

The analogy is apt, yes, and the reasons are the same. Cars decades ago were simple physical systems. I could take apart my 1980 Mercedes with one box worth of tools. A modern Mercedes can’t even be tuned without special software. Even more modern cars — EVs — are basically laptops with wheels. The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it. It’s not learned helplessness for me to realize that I can’t debug…

> The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it.

For you it may be gone, for many others - myself included - it was and is and always will be. The key factor here is self-reliance, the desire and ability to take care of your own`environment. This is, no matter what "experts" and those who parrot them say, still possible even when confronted with modern equipment. Not with all modern equipment, mind you, but that is not a problem given the wide array of choices presented to us by the oft-lambasted capitalist economy - vote with your wallet and avoid user-hostile equipment.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#67

Post by kgwxd »

sonofhans wrote: post #19
userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

For sure I take your point about seeing POST information. When I switched from Debian to OS X (10.0) I installed an app which gave me that POST info on boot. It looked pretty cool. I was used to seeing it in Linux for years, and it make me happy to have it on OS X. > Apple has always chosen form over function. But this isn’t true, and there’s substantial evidence against it. Steve Jobs is famous for saying, “Design i…

> Then to compete well in that market, computer manufacturers need to make things which are durable and long-lasting, and with good support. Apple does exactly this.

Hard disagree on this. Durable and long lasting has to be a joke. Can’t handle a short fall and planned obsolescence after 2 years. Good support is also very wrong. Replacing broken screens (poorly) and factory resting phones (because their own security police’s prevent the user from doing it themselves in the name of theft prevention) for excessive fees isn’t good support. They’re no better than any other device maker, they just have a huge theatrical mall presence that makes them look like they’re “different”.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#68

Post by lelanthran »

doctor_eval wrote: post #64
lelanthran wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what benefit does this messy POST give me? For you? Nothing. For a significant number of people? A lot. You would rather remove the helpful messages because "messages makes my computer unpretty", than simply ignore them?

Well, “significant number” is nevertheless a tiny minority. Making computers accessible and non threatening to everyone is important. Filling the screen with acronym soup advances neither of these goals. Instead of people thinking “I can do this”, they think computers are hard. Also, minimising what I’m saying by using diminutive language - “messages makes my computer unpretty” - is lazy. Good design is important, ev…

> Well, “significant number” is nevertheless a tiny minority.

May tiny, but tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands is still "significant" in any sense of the word.

> Also, minimising what I’m saying by using diminutive language - “messages makes my computer unpretty” - is lazy.

Like how you're minimising the importance of technical users?

Lets not forget that it is primarily technical users who buy macbooks; developers, designers, etc.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#69

Post by philwelch »

doctor_eval wrote: post #64
lelanthran wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what benefit does this messy POST give me? For you? Nothing. For a significant number of people? A lot. You would rather remove the helpful messages because "messages makes my computer unpretty", than simply ignore them?

Well, “significant number” is nevertheless a tiny minority. Making computers accessible and non threatening to everyone is important. Filling the screen with acronym soup advances neither of these goals. Instead of people thinking “I can do this”, they think computers are hard. Also, minimising what I’m saying by using diminutive language - “messages makes my computer unpretty” - is lazy. Good design is important, ev…

Hiding information and making it harder to fix things yourself is what makes computing inaccessible. A black box computing appliance that you can’t fix or work on is less accessible, not more.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#70

Post by doctor_eval »

lelanthran wrote: post #68
doctor_eval wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, “significant number” is nevertheless a tiny minority. Making computers accessible and non threatening to everyone is important. Filling the screen with acronym soup advances neither of these goals. Instead of people thinking “I can do this”, they think computers are hard. Also, minimising what I’m saying by using diminutive language - “messages makes my computer unpretty” - is lazy. Good design is important, ev…

> Well, “significant number” is nevertheless a tiny minority. May tiny, but tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands is still "significant" in any sense of the word. > Also, minimising what I’m saying by using diminutive language - “messages makes my computer unpretty” - is lazy. Like how you're minimising the importance of technical users? Lets not forget that it is primarily technical users who buy macbooks; dev…

I’m not minimising the importance of technical users. I’m just saying that ugly POST messages aren’t helpful to most people. Hell, I’m technical and I don’t miss them.

I’m not sure about your point that mostly technical users buy MacBooks, since they don’t show POST messages. Doesn’t that suggest I’m right?

Post reply on HN