Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

cambridge.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 103 posts

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#61

Post by meepmorp »

quchen wrote: post #56
yakubin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supposed to be based on a dose. I suspect only people who have taken LSD know really.

Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo . If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetu…

> appear sober to the uninitiated

The initiated, however know exactly why your pupils are huge and you have that look on your face.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#63

Post by theaiquestion »

yakubin wrote: post #53
elif wrote: post #28

It's humorous to me that they bothered injecting saline into the control group here. I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD, and the act of wondering whether you are or not is enough to induce panic. Pretty sure both groups would produce higher quality data in an unblinded study.

> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supposed to be based on a dose. I suspect only people who have taken LSD know really.

~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this.

75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. There was no way anyone mistakes that for being sober.

That said the come-up at any dose and any experience level is hilarious because everyone is always like "is it hitting yet?" as it progressively becomes more intense.

tl;dr - placebo could fool even some experienced users if they know they're being given a really low dose. The treatment group would absolutely know no matter how much experience you have.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/LSD

EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. Always use two different reagents to test, and always have a plan to control anxiety in case of bad trips.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#64

Post by s1artibartfast »

photochemsyn wrote: post #60

This is a rather strange definition of 'learning', a better term would be 'behavioral modification.' Here's a definition of the practice: > "From an affective neuroscience perspective, our understanding of psychiatric illness may be advanced by neuropsychological test paradigms probing emotional processes. Reversal learning is one such process, whereby subjects must first acquire stimulus/reward and stimulus/punishme…

That's interesting, I've never heard about it attenuating 3D visualization capability. I know that some people are good at it and some people are not capable. My understanding of psychedelics is based in the plasticity model, so I felt or assumed that 3D visualization was just a flexing or practice using those skills, not acquisition of new skills

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#65

Post by huuman12 »

danielbln wrote: post #51
srge wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about 75 being a fairly mild dose. For a 200lbs male maybe. For a 100lbs female definitely not.

LSD doesn't scale with bodyweight, you take the same amount no matter if you're 100 or 300lbs. Apart from that, 70mcg is a mild dose on context of a regular recreational dose of 150-250mcg, but I agree that 70mcg by itself will absolutely significantly impair an inexperienced user and there is a zero percent chance you would conflate 70mcg with placebo.

in what world is 250ug of lsd considered a “regular recreational” dose? The standard 100-125 that you get on most paper tabs is plenty to have a strong trip for the vast majority of people and 200-250ug is going to be way too strong for everyone except for the most experienced people

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#66

Post by b800h »

huuman12 wrote: post #65
danielbln wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LSD doesn't scale with bodyweight, you take the same amount no matter if you're 100 or 300lbs. Apart from that, 70mcg is a mild dose on context of a regular recreational dose of 150-250mcg, but I agree that 70mcg by itself will absolutely significantly impair an inexperienced user and there is a zero percent chance you would conflate 70mcg with placebo.

in what world is 250ug of lsd considered a “regular recreational” dose? The standard 100-125 that you get on most paper tabs is plenty to have a strong trip for the vast majority of people and 200-250ug is going to be way too strong for everyone except for the most experienced people

I remember that story about Jim Morrison going missing (before a gig or recording or something?) - he was eventually found under a bed, and all he could say was "ten thousand mics!"

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#67

Post by quchen »

meepmorp wrote: post #61
quchen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo . If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetu…

> appear sober to the uninitiated The initiated, however know exactly why your pupils are huge and you have that look on your face.

My pupils are fine at that dose. It's more subtle, it's the way I start looking at things (clouds, bark, grass, fur, my own hand) or zoning out while talking to someone. FWIW I never went above 100ug, nor do I feel like I want or need to. It gets quite intense once you learn how to let it.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#68

Post by nabla9 »

Buhljingo wrote: post #3

Would love to see this type of experiment performed across different dosages, 25 μg -200 μg. I think the "positive" effects would take a big, sudden drop after a certain threshold

Another experiment immediately after the LSD trip is over and the drug has been metabolized. Something like 24h - 48h afterwards.

I find that the most positive cognitive effects come directly afterwards, when the mind is clear. It's like opposite of hangover.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#69

Post by quchen »

huuman12 wrote: post #65
danielbln wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LSD doesn't scale with bodyweight, you take the same amount no matter if you're 100 or 300lbs. Apart from that, 70mcg is a mild dose on context of a regular recreational dose of 150-250mcg, but I agree that 70mcg by itself will absolutely significantly impair an inexperienced user and there is a zero percent chance you would conflate 70mcg with placebo.

in what world is 250ug of lsd considered a “regular recreational” dose? The standard 100-125 that you get on most paper tabs is plenty to have a strong trip for the vast majority of people and 200-250ug is going to be way too strong for everyone except for the most experienced people

I think most people get over-sold blotters. Every now and then there's a study checking how much LSD is actually on sold-as-200ug blotters, and it's typically 60-80. This also leads to heavy overdoses when getting your hands on actual 200ug blotters...

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#70

Post by herbst »

jokowueu wrote: post #16
tiku wrote: post #9

I'm more scared of LSD than ever before, after hearing about that you see "scanlines" for ever after using it. Anyone got this after? https://www.insider.com/9-years-after-acid-trip-man-has-pers...

Aside from fud the only thing that is known among psychadelic users is visual snow ( one of the hallmarks of HPPD) . this sometimes happens after extremely high doses of psychadelics

Worst about visual snow is that the night sky is a busy mess and I never know if a light dot is actually real. Definitely too much LSD for to long
Post reply on HN