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Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

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Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#61

Post by ofalkaed »

version_five wrote: post #40
ofalkaed wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way in that a CS PHD is going to be able to pickup programming languages better and more quickly than someone who has learned C++ and python, they understand the underlying mechanics of language, what makes it work. But a toddler is something different, they primarily mimic and play with the language gauging function on result, how do people react to what I say. Learning languages from a young age is why the…

> The same way in that a CS PHD is going to be able to pickup programming languages better and more quickly than someone who has learned C++ and python Huh? This is about as convincing to me as the claim that learning linguistics makes it easier to learn a human language. It's also sort of a non-sequitor. Someone who understands python and C++ would be trivially able to understand a massive swath of modern programmin…

>Someone who understands python and C++ would be trivially able to understand a massive swath of modern programming languages. I see little that having some deeper theoretical background would help.

Yes, they will be able to quickly pickup related languages with relative ease just as someone who knows a romance language will be able to pickup other romance languages without much difficulty. But that person who knows C++ and Pynthon with nothing of the underlying workings will have a more difficult time learning assembly, Forth or Lisp than a related language just as the person who knows a romance language will have a more difficult time learning Swahili than another romance language. Not a non-sequitor at all. When you look at CS or linguistics and how they relate to the languages they deal with what they really are are the study of what those languages have in common and understanding that will decrease what you need to learn when learning new languages.

Understanding a language and using a language are very different things and this is why toddlers can pickup languages with more ease than others, they do not care so much about understanding, and this is the primary limitation of our first language(s) and why being bilingual offers little cognitive advantage for most people.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#62

Post by gsk22 »

courgette wrote: post #52
tstrimple wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to imagine there are parallel benefits as well. Just as a Java developer will become a better Java developer by learning programming languages with other paradigms, I have to believe knowing multiple spoken languages has tangible benefits outside of understanding the language itself.

French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft pow…

> pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English

We do say "turn of phrase" in English, which means something similar. I wonder if both have the same origin.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#63

Post by dukeofdoom »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #5

That seems to reflect my lived experience. Do bilingual people in general seem to be more intelligent? I don't think so. But, like many other things in life, the access of even a second language in my opinion gives you another tool to use as intellectual leverage to gain greater or richer understanding to many specific domains that you would otherwise require someone else to digest the information for you. That doesn…

One benefit if you know another language, you are more likely to have experienced living in a different culture. So you may take a more meta and critical view of the current cultural trends, not feeling as much pressure to conform.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#64

Post by torstenvl »

klodolph wrote: post #57
courgette wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft pow…

“Turn of phrase” is an English idiom, but it sounds like it does not mean the same thing.

Le truc c'est qu' «une phrase» en français veut dire "a sentence" en anglais.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#65

Post by courgette »

qsort wrote: post #39
tstrimple wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to imagine there are parallel benefits as well. Just as a Java developer will become a better Java developer by learning programming languages with other paradigms, I have to believe knowing multiple spoken languages has tangible benefits outside of understanding the language itself.

A Java developer becomes a better Java developer if they learn alternative concepts that Java doesn't empasize as much. Learning Lisp, Haskell or C is going to be useful, for example. But a Java developer won't become a better Java developer if they learn C#, which is basically Java with different capitalization conventions. I guess something like that happens for natural languages. You get those benefits if you acti…

I speak French, English and Spanish. In that order.

Some concept exist in one and not the other. Addressing someone in a formal way. Addressing a group a once ( “y’all” )

But I know bits and pieces of German, Latin and Polish… those have lots of grammatical differences that force you to think about the structure of your sentence. Recognize a datif from a ablatif. That type of things. It actually help with writing correct French.

But I’m not sure it would make me “better” like learning a functional language or ASM made me a “better” developer.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#66

Post by tick_tock_tick »

rib3ye wrote: post #58
courgette wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft pow…

You don’t think English propagation had anything to do with British colonialism?

I mean them colonizing the USA.....

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#67

Post by rahimnathwani »

tnel77 wrote: post #55

My theory: in the United States, speaking multiple languages can be a sign of coming from a more financially sound household. I wouldn’t expect a second language to be any better for the brain than studying math or learning to play an instrument. As always, the most important factor is money.

Speaking more than 2 languages might be such a sign.

But where I live (in San Francisco) speaking exactly 2 languages is usually a sign that you or your parents are immigrants.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#68

Post by evilduck »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #36
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #5

That seems to reflect my lived experience. Do bilingual people in general seem to be more intelligent? I don't think so. But, like many other things in life, the access of even a second language in my opinion gives you another tool to use as intellectual leverage to gain greater or richer understanding to many specific domains that you would otherwise require someone else to digest the information for you. That doesn…

> But, like many other things in life, the access of even a second language in my opinion gives you another tool to use as intellectual leverage to gain greater or richer understanding to many specific domains that you would otherwise require someone else to digest the information for you. What are some of those domains, do you think?

Probably depends if your view is outside of a popular language looking in or inside a popular language looking out.

If you only speak English you probably aren't lacking access to to many fields of study. If you a one of the few who only speak Koro, you probably feel differently about to volume of knowledge available to you.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#69

Post by thaumasiotes »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #66
rib3ye wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t think English propagation had anything to do with British colonialism?

I mean them colonizing the USA.....

The presence of English in India is pretty clearly due to the efforts of the British, not the Americans. Same thing in Australia.

Presence of English in France and Germany might be more due to Americans.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#70

Post by [deleted] »

pb7 wrote: post #59
AdrenalinMd wrote: post #50

As someone fluent in four languages*, I agree. I would even argue that the opposite of an advantage is true. Consider this: it adds unnecessary cognitive load. When trying to think of a word, it comes to you in four different languages, which isn't helpful! I speak four languages out of necessity, not by choice. When you can focus on fewer languages, your proficiency in them improves. Although I can speak four langua…

I am also originally from Moldova and speak the same 4 languages. If I had to guess, this is fairly common in Moldova -- at least in private schools. I would say there is a very mild advantage, even recognizing vaguely similar words in other languages when traveling. I find Russian to be very useful in a way that French and Romanian aren't. English, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, and Spanish are the most "useful" as they…

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