More than a third of community college students have vanished • Hacker News Board

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#61

Post by legitster » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

Somewhat counterintuitively, I personally found that the quality of instruction at community college vastly exceeded that at a university.

Most cc teachers were not tenured - they were often experienced industry professionals who taught as a hobby. And the ones that were prized and retained were the ones who had exceptional teaching/lecture ability.

At a university so many professors are basically just the middle-management of academia - hired because of their research or experience managing grad students.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#62

Post by than3 » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:52 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #15

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

The issue is network effects, though, right? If community colleges could attract the best teachers (etc.), and provide the kind of education as stated , then perhaps they would be what people want. The problem is the incentives of workers, academics, students, the state, etc. are not aligned. Most students probably do want the best practical education to get them into the workforce effectively -- but those who can pr…

Having just short of 15 years of personal experience with this I can say with certainty, the issue is accountability.

There simply is none, and what's considered fraud in any other industry is just business as usual.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#63

Post by kaycebasques » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:53 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #59

kaycebasques wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Transfer programs though are a mess Depends on the state. IGETC [1], the transfer program from California community colleges to the UC system, was very straightforward back in 2007-2009. Cal had a few dorm buildings specifically for transfer students. Each UC even provided stats on the admission rate for each major. [1] https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requi...

I took advantage of a similar transfer program in WA state (about which this article is written) but it was not at all straightforward. The state colleges only had so many openings they made available to transfer students, and the application process was worse in many ways. Part of the issue they won't tell you is that you can apply as a transfer student with basic admissions requirements, but to actually get into so…

True, the UC system also has the issue where there are general transfer requirements (IGETC) but then each major has its own requirements on top of that.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#64

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

I believe this is also due to a perception problem. Name recognition is important when it comes to college degrees and there is a stigma against community colleges.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#65

Post by etempleton » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #42

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

The only vote that matters is college graduate HR personnel, and their vote is that CC and associates degrees are lower than worthless, literally a waste of time, would be more likely to hire with two years of entry level or minimum wage work than with an associates degree. Any CC student whom is motivated by employment is flushing their money down the toilet if they're on a track or a program. I was in a transfer pr…

This is true. Community Colleges can be a great tool if you know how to use them. The best value is to go two years to a community college that has automatic acceptance to a 4 year state school. You then get to finish your degree at what may be a fairly prestigious state school.

The other way to use Community Colleges is to focus on something that has a very specific certification or outcome just by finishing the certificate or degree program.

An associates degree from a community college by itself has minimal value.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#66

Post by professoretc » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #21

mjburgess wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is network effects, though, right? If community colleges could attract the best teachers (etc.), and provide the kind of education as stated , then perhaps they would be what people want. The problem is the incentives of workers, academics, students, the state, etc. are not aligned. Most students probably do want the best practical education to get them into the workforce effectively -- but those who can pr…

Community colleges flat out can't afford the salaries that the best require. That's not network effects, that's a market effect.

Some CCs actually pay better than 4-year schools. There's a lot of competition to get tenure at a university, which can drive down salaries.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#67

Post by swagasaurus-rex » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 4:36 PM UTC

screwturner68 wrote: post #32

causi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem being that community colleges will happily lie to your face about what does and does not transfer and most community college students aren't going to lawyer up about it.

That's more on the universities end than the CC, I used to see it all the time. The community colleges would have agreements with many universities but when you'd as the uni to accept your credits they wouldn't and you'd spend 6 months fighting it. I took a calculus class at Purdue over the summer and tried to transfer it to Indiana and they flatly rejected it -same state, same class, won't accept it. Everybody has t…

By denying course transfers Universities benefit. Students are forced to enroll for additional quarters. The university could make tens of thousands of dollars per student on a few course transfer denials.

This comes at an enormous time and money cost to the student.

A good alternative would be to test proficiency for that class. But that’s additional work a University has little desire to do, beyond allowing for testing out of precalculus.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#68

Post by etempleton » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #15

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

The issue is network effects, though, right? If community colleges could attract the best teachers (etc.), and provide the kind of education as stated , then perhaps they would be what people want. The problem is the incentives of workers, academics, students, the state, etc. are not aligned. Most students probably do want the best practical education to get them into the workforce effectively -- but those who can pr…

A college or university's reputation is based on a number of things, just one is the quality of education that is provided. The Ivy league is the Ivy League because of being in a shared athletic conference and because those schools are some of the oldest in the nation.

The biggest drivers of reputation of have little to nothing to do with the quality of instruction. Below are probably the largest drivers of reputation in ranked order:

1. Athletics

2. Research

3. Notable alumni

4. Notable campus beauty / landscaping / facilities

5. Appearances in popular culture (movies, tv, etc.)

6. Outstanding instruction in a particular discipline for decades

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#69

Post by etempleton » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 4:57 PM UTC

atty wrote: post #13

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

I think that’s missing one big piece. What people really want cheap education that ends with a degree that is as well regarded as an Ivy or good state college degree. Community colleges, for better or worse, are seen as inferior education. So they are not equivalent to simply a cheaper option of more expensive schools.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. The reputation of the Ivy or R1 state schools are what they are because of everything they do outside of the classroom.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#70

Post by taftster » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #61

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

Somewhat counterintuitively, I personally found that the quality of instruction at community college vastly exceeded that at a university. Most cc teachers were not tenured - they were often experienced industry professionals who taught as a hobby. And the ones that were prized and retained were the ones who had exceptional teaching/lecture ability. At a university so many professors are basically just the middle-man…

This is exactly right. At a community college, you're likely to find an adjunct professor who is an expert in their field teaching on the side more for the fun and altruistic aspects of education.

At a normal university, you end up taking classes from "professional" professors with no actual industry experience who are unlikely to be native English speakers. These professors copy & paste their notes, assignments and exams, cheating their way through teaching, hardly able to go off script or explain a concept beyond their intended lecture area. I've literally taken several classes (at the graduate level even) where the entire curriculum, lecture notes, assignments, exams were copy-pasted from other teachers or schools.

Of course, I believe there are some highly reputable universities and reputable professors. But the vast majority of PhD professors teaching at middle to low tier schools are hardly really teaching.

I'll take a class from an adjunct who is passionate about teaching even if they are somewhat just winging it. At least their heart and experience are in the right place.