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Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

vigneshwarar.substack.com

61–70 of 82 posts

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#61

Two obvious points: why not machine learning, and a more explicit mix of exploration and exploitation Meaning give more posts a chance, a certain number of views to determine the upvote rate. Conventional wisdom would apply spam filter, boost new users (e.g. first post), detect blatant manipulation (or more sophisticated manipulation using clustering).

With machine learning you have the same kind of problems with an added factor of unpredictability.

ML to make the recommendations more dynamic per user means people are not seeing the same things and engagement tanks.

ML to make the recommendations more global means a lot of people are going to see stuff they don't care about and they're going to have no idea why. It's usually this family of problems that ML adds an extra layer of opacity to the most.

Then you add extra tabs to give the user more control, and now you've added a fresh complexity trade off.

The sanest aggregators have simplistic recommendation algorithms and a bunch of janitorial work on top in the form of moderation/censorship. There must be something to this formula.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#63

last month, "update to kagi search pricing" ranked 275 with metadata 116 points by exist 8 hours ago with 132 comments its cohorts ranked 270 to 282 (by my screenshoot) are of age 1day+ and with ten or more comments it's weird that post which is new, popular and engaging then sunk to the bottom 275 very fast within hours

it seems that someone replied with a link and it's gone

here's the link: https://hnrankings.info/35078392/

it shows "update to kagi search pricing" started and stayed in the front of hn for 1.5 hours

it then left the front page and raced to rank 300 within the next 4 hours

the disturbing thing is that this hn post with id 35078392 generates 116 points with 132 comments

poof, just like that

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#64
> why don't we apply PageRank for every user based on the upvotes they receive for the comments they leave on any post

Absolutely not, think about the incentives this creates! Imagine yourself to be an adversary, how would you game this system? Easy: spam low-effort highly agreeable comments across the site. The more the better, they're basically guaranteed to get some upvotes and boost your karma. Now, with your newfound power, you can shape the HN front page to your will.

Instead of the front page being a signal of quality, it would be correlated to the posters' karma. And because the front page is a limited resource, you basically get a crappier version of Twitter where relatively low-karma accounts have practically no chance to get on the front page even with high-quality posts, and high-karma accounts will be able to roll their front-page posts into even more karma. This is pretty much one of the biggest flaws of major social media websites today: they concentrate power in a few users with massive influence.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#65
1. The article suggests running PageRank on a graph of users as nodes and edges as - "has user A upvoted a comment of user B" as an edge:

""" Since it's likely that one user may upvote multiple comments from the same user, we check whether a user has already upvoted a comment from that specific user before considering their upvote. In other words, we treat user profiles as nodes and upvotes for comments as edges. """

This is a very lossy conversion of the actual data:

a. It does not distinguish if user C and D upvoted the same comment of user B or not. Maybe one comment was good and the other was bad. But when you convert it to the above graph you only get that C and D upvoted some comment of user B.

b. It does not account for the number of comments user B left - 1000 or 5? This incentivizes spam because there is no upside to not posting.

c. It ignores users that do not comment but upvote valuable comments themselves. Then the PageRank is used to weigh upvotes of users. This is backwards. The PageRank values should capture the value of each user's past upvotes in order to use it as a prediction of how valuable their future upvotes will be. But the suggested algorithm uses the value of the user's past comments as a weight of their future upvotes.

To fix this I think the graph needs to be changed to a bipartite graph of users and comments as nodes and upvotes and flags as directed edges (when the author posts a comment - this should be represented as an implicit upvote of the comment). Then you can calculate how valuable each user's upvotes (and flags) are.

2. The "gameability" of PageRank stems from the fact that the random walk algorithm treats each users equally as a starting point. It means that you can create a ton of fake users and upvote the comments of a target user you want to artificially boost in upvote-power. Each time the random walk starts at one of those fake users the walk will end up in the target user - increasing their PageRank score.

My proposal to solve the "gameability" problem is to start each walk from you - the user that views HackerNews. It means that your past upvotes become the starting step of the random walk and so the resulting PageRank will be personalized for you. Instead of a single PageRank reputation score (which captures how user A's contributions to HN have been to all users), there is a set of personalized scores that capture how useful other users have been to you.

I'm building https://linklonk.com which uses this kind of algorithm to rank both links and comments. The details of the ranking algorithm are here: https://linklonk.com/item/3292763817660940288

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#66
post #5

Using page rank as suggested by OP, would provide weird incentives like frequent comments, or higher volume, could rank a person higher than if they had occasional comments further down the thread. If OP is interested in the most influential commenters, people who write frequently and have a posse, then PR would be a good way to do it. What would happen to a helpful comment from a throwaway account? If there's more o…

"…would provide weird incentives like frequent comments, or higher volume, could rank a person higher than if they had occasional comments further down the thread." I know I'll be out of step with most who comment on HN but I question the necessity of having a ranking/voting system at all. All it seems to do is to act as an ego booter for commentators and it messes up orderly discussion when people insist on posting…

Not having an explicit ranking system means that things are ranked by submission time. This too incentivizes certain behavior (frequent posting). Maybe one can get around that with certain guardrails like rate limiting submissions/comments but that's yet another can of worms to open.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#67
post #5

Using page rank as suggested by OP, would provide weird incentives like frequent comments, or higher volume, could rank a person higher than if they had occasional comments further down the thread. If OP is interested in the most influential commenters, people who write frequently and have a posse, then PR would be a good way to do it. What would happen to a helpful comment from a throwaway account? If there's more o…

"…would provide weird incentives like frequent comments, or higher volume, could rank a person higher than if they had occasional comments further down the thread." I know I'll be out of step with most who comment on HN but I question the necessity of having a ranking/voting system at all. All it seems to do is to act as an ego booter for commentators and it messes up orderly discussion when people insist on posting…

I agree with you mostly (and will give you an upvote). I think we've seen enough to understand that upvotes and downvotes are dolled out based on how well a comment agrees or disagrees with the voters preconceived notion of whatever the topic is.

I also question the concept of 'hiding' comments. Are my eyes so delicate that I can't see certain comments by default? It seems like just a feature that exists to bias subsequent viewers against comments.

It'd be really interesting to see a system where voters have both one upvote/downvote for the submission and the ability to upvote one comment and downvote one comment.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#68

I think the article ranking is probably good enough. Where I have more trouble with is with comment-ranking within an article. The interface makes it hard to understand conversational flow, and of course that flow changes over time according to whatever the algorithm does. This makes it very hard to catch up later on an article’s comments and get a view of what has changed since my last view. Maybe there is a way to…

At one point you could email hn@ycombinator.com and ask to participate in the new beta, which among other things highlights new comments since you’ve last visited the page. I don’t know the status of it, but it seemed like an interesting idea.

That should be pretty easy to do in a browser extension. Keep track of the last time the comment section was opened, highlight comments newer than that.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#69
post #47

I think the article ranking is probably good enough. Where I have more trouble with is with comment-ranking within an article. The interface makes it hard to understand conversational flow, and of course that flow changes over time according to whatever the algorithm does. This makes it very hard to catch up later on an article’s comments and get a view of what has changed since my last view. Maybe there is a way to…

Comments I haven't seen are a different color. But I read HN from a "custom" UI.

Which?

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#70
post #49

I think the article ranking is probably good enough. Where I have more trouble with is with comment-ranking within an article. The interface makes it hard to understand conversational flow, and of course that flow changes over time according to whatever the algorithm does. This makes it very hard to catch up later on an article’s comments and get a view of what has changed since my last view. Maybe there is a way to…

> This makes it very hard to catch up later on an article’s comments My biggest complaint related to this is that all threads are dead within 24 hours, which kills a lot of interesting discussion. And commenters have no incentive to reply to dead threads. This discourages in depth back and forth conversation which I usually find is the most interesting.

And even if someone replies to you specifically, the only way you would know is noticing your karma increased on the top right of the page.
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