He who submits a resume has already lost • Hacker News Board

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#61

Post by jensneuse » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:46 AM UTC

deebosong wrote: post #37

jensneuse wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platf…

I'm not in your field, but I read it as such from the get-go and I thought, "Yeah I know what this person is talking about – basically, not seeking someone who lays it on too thick about being in love with the company (or even the specific software/ work), but someone who reads the job description, and is fairly assured they are very capable of doing the work, and wants to do the work because it's interesting to them…

You've got this exactly right. We're not your family. We are an employer. I think we offer a special opportunity. We give our employees a lot of freedom to structure their work day. There's no office, it's all remote.

What we're really just looking for is a healthy mix of passion and experience in the field. I believe that people do their best work when it's easy for them to wake up in the morning, they have low stress, they like their colleagues and don't hate the stuff they are working on. Even better if you're passionate about the work you're doing. That gives you a lot of energy to actually perform the work, and for us we're getting great results. This makes our company more valuable, we get more customers and revenue. We can increase your salary and you live a good life. Everybody wins, no?

So people should not try to read something into what I wrote above that's simply not there.

Tell my why you want to work at WunderGraph. Tell my why you think you'd perform good work. That's all.

Please don't write a cover letter. Keep it simple. The best of the best can say a lot with few words.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#62

Post by adrianmsmith » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:49 AM UTC

jensneuse wrote: post #21

andrewstuart wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude is well suited to an employers market in which you need to profess your love for the job and company as part of your job application. A pity the market has turned back this direction. It’s usually accompanied by an employer “looking for someone who loves the opportunity enough to go through our 12 week, 9 interview, 1 whiteboard, 2 coding test process which usually ends in veto and ghosting”. Like telli…

I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platf…

> We're not offering you a job. We offer you the opportunity to work together with a smart bunch of people on a very hard problem.

I think this can be a trap. I'm not saying that your company does this, but I've learned to be wary of this. We've all heard of game programmers who are in endless "crunch mode" for less salary than they can get elsewhere. They accept this precisely because they want the opportunity to work on something they love. But is it fair of the company to abuse people like that? Is it really the right choice to work at a place like that?

Again, I'm not saying your company is abusing anyone. But when I feel this sort of vibe coming from a company that I'm applying to and have no insider knowledge of, it makes me think there might be that sort of abuse going on, which makes me less likely to want to apply to the company.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#63

Post by carabiner » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:51 AM UTC

jensneuse wrote: post #7

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

What evidence do you present, besides your own company, that any of that works at increasing one's chances?

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#64

Post by mihaaly » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:51 AM UTC

jensneuse wrote: post #7

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

  > 1. Why do you want to take this role?
  > 2. Why are you a good fit for this role?

These are the two most useless things to ask from yourself. You know almost nothing reliable about the role - except when have real insights from earlier, but that is the priority line, not in scope here with open competition of unknown persons - at the stage of interviewing apart from what is put into pompous public descriptions of the company and the role designed to amaze (basicly self praise, overstatements, no negatives, sometimes misdirections). Only broad scopes yet. Also you will only have chance knowing if you are fit after some discussion not before even the first contact! Come on! And that is only a chance knowing some, you will only know the culture, the procedures, the infrastructure, the mentality, the professionalism, basicly everything important about the organization affecting your fit after the first couple of months working there. Then you could determine if you are fit or not! Not at the submission, please! Be honest to yourself and to your future colleague!

Good employers know this, they experience it from the other side (testing an employee fit takes time in action, and several times they fail predicting it). Also people can and have to form themselves into the role, no one born fit. Pretending to know the answers already when there could be none yet either shows a will to bullshit or being clueless. None of which are desirable (in most cases, bullshiting is useful for some organizations, of course).

What are the honest and reliable answers here? (in generic case, not for those through backdoors)

1. I need to work for money pretty soon and you just have this open role which I think I could fulfill some way.

2. No chance knowing that at this stage however on the surface and based on both of our public history and things we project about orselves the chances are good.

No way standing out by pretending along such vague or obvious questions, that is basically the generic approach at this elimination stage what everyone is doing. I straight up refuse writing childish essays called cover letter too, ranting about how good fit I am and how thrilled I am applying to this specific role and specific organization happened to have open position when I happened to look for jobs, what a great coincidence and life purpose! I send either nothing, empty page (when the submission system tries to enforce it), or contextual facts about the application. Role relevant facts are already in the CV/Resume. We could talk about intentions and fit in person, not through robotic HR elimnators. If this is no good for the employer then we are definitely no fit.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#65

Post by capybara_2020 » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:52 AM UTC

deebosong wrote: post #37

jensneuse wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platf…

I'm not in your field, but I read it as such from the get-go and I thought, "Yeah I know what this person is talking about – basically, not seeking someone who lays it on too thick about being in love with the company (or even the specific software/ work), but someone who reads the job description, and is fairly assured they are very capable of doing the work, and wants to do the work because it's interesting to them…

That is the problem with pitches like this, they sound pretty good, till you have read a ton of these and worked with a few companies like this and have been burnt by them.

I guess this highlights the problem with the whole recruitment space. This company put out the equivalent of a bad generic resume while complaining about potential employees putting out bad generic resumes.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#66

Post by shadowofneptune » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:52 AM UTC

Goes without saying for Hacker News, but this seems specific to one industry. I did get hired off of resumé and a phone interview in my first application—but that's nursing, where right now they'll hire anyone who moves. I think the old rules they talk about in interview guides still work, absent any sector-specific distortions.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#67

Post by carabiner » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:52 AM UTC

jensneuse wrote: post #61

deebosong wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in your field, but I read it as such from the get-go and I thought, "Yeah I know what this person is talking about – basically, not seeking someone who lays it on too thick about being in love with the company (or even the specific software/ work), but someone who reads the job description, and is fairly assured they are very capable of doing the work, and wants to do the work because it's interesting to them…

You've got this exactly right. We're not your family. We are an employer. I think we offer a special opportunity. We give our employees a lot of freedom to structure their work day. There's no office, it's all remote. What we're really just looking for is a healthy mix of passion and experience in the field. I believe that people do their best work when it's easy for them to wake up in the morning, they have low stre…

Is this from Chatgpt? It sounds like generic startup pablum. "We're not like other companies," proceeds to sound like every company.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#68

Post by okasaki » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:53 AM UTC

jensneuse wrote: post #7

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

> What's the purpose of sending a CV when I have to do all the hard work?

Well, you're being paid to do it, the candidates aren't.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#69

Post by keiferski » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:54 AM UTC

I have also found that Jobs Acquired by Submitting Resume are almost always worse than Jobs Acquired Through Network. Which makes sense, as the network jobs mean you usually know at least one person working at the company and are friendly/culturally compatible with that person. And if that person works there, chances are that there will be other similar people.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#70

Post by frrae » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:56 AM UTC

jensneuse wrote: post #7

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

> What's the purpose of sending a CV when I have to do all the hard work?

The article we are discussing here claims that there already is an asymmetry in the sense that the applicant has to put time into polishing a resume while the company does basically nothing.

So, you are going even further by essentially requiring the applicant to first write an open source library in the space before they are interesting?