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Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

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Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#61

I can't find another job even with a FAANG background. The market is brutal. Maybe my only choice is to start a startup.

Could also be why you can't find a job. You may be too expensive, and they're looking for engineers in the sweet spot of cheap/can keep the machine running.

FANG like companies also do a lot of things different then most other, especially smaller companies, so it's not that uncommon for small companies to hesitate to hire someone directly coming from FANG.

Then for lower paying jobs a lot of people are hesitant to hire "overqualified" people as they expect them to jump ship the moment they find something better, i.e. no FANG people.

Then team leads no matter which job/industry often avoid hiring someone perceived more qualified then them, like e.g. from FANG.

Or in other words in an economy where you might need to be happy with a less well paying job which you also might be perceived to be overqualified for having a long term FANG employment without an employment afterwards isn't necessary a good thing...

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#62
post #18

We actually tracked every laid off individual from Google to understand the story behind the layoffs. Here's the summary: - 747 out of the 2,762 laid-off Googlers have since updated their profiles to indicate a change of employment status in the last 4 months since November 2022. - Only 56.7% of these people joined a tech company. - 1/3 of these ex-Googlers joined startups. See the full blog post here: https://nubela…

[deleted]

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#63

One thing that is very important to realize after being laid-off from a very big company during a recession is that you need to adjust your salary expectations for the new reality. And the other thing is that you should have been prepared for this a long, long time ago. Economic cycles are a thing, it is in all history books, there's no excuse for not being aware of them. I have always been very very conservative wit…

Last year I took a $15.000 a year pay cut, for a job I really wanted, and that's more aligned with my ideals. It didn't effect our home economy in any meaningful way and I wasn't making anything close to the salaries I've seen people on HN expect (closer to $100K).

If we get to a point, and I'm not sure we're quite there yet, where the big tech companies, startups and other VC funded ventures can't absorb the layoff, then yes, you're absolutely correct. People need to adjust their expectations. $100K - 150K is a pretty comfortable salary in most areas. If you expect $300K to maintain your current lifestyle, you really need to think about scaling back. It may never be an issue, but if it does, you're better prepared and will have a sizable saving for those rainy days.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#64
post #18

We actually tracked every laid off individual from Google to understand the story behind the layoffs. Here's the summary: - 747 out of the 2,762 laid-off Googlers have since updated their profiles to indicate a change of employment status in the last 4 months since November 2022. - Only 56.7% of these people joined a tech company. - 1/3 of these ex-Googlers joined startups. See the full blog post here: https://nubela…

Does your dataset include names or personally-identifiable information (IMO being able to key by all those 1-person companies counts)? If so, that seems a little... scuzzy? Would you consider pulling the dataset or at least making it coarse and pseudonymous? I would guess many of the people included and monetized here wouldn't expect or wish to be.

If the response is public scraping is legal, then I might suggest your company's framing of the product is making incorrect claims about this group. From your blog page:

"[N] people indicated a change of employment in the last 4 months (from the date of writing i.e. 14 February, yes Valentines’ Day) - aka ex-Googlers that got laid off."

That 'aka' doesn't necessarily follow, though? People leave companies for many reasons, and therefore this is not a valid "laid-off Googler" dataset.

(Edit: I might be misunderstanding but Google's layoffs were announced less than a month before Feb 14. Why look at the three months before that? Edit 2: noting sibling comment already asked this, didn't mean to duplicate)

Less important, while you do mention some biases inherent in the source (LinkedIn use by country, who has/updates a profile), please note that some of your blog article's headline claims are contradicted by publicly-available data available from press and WARN act filings.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Only 56.7% of these people joined a tech company Does this suggest that a large fraction of laid off employees were in non-tech roles (e.g. pro{ject,duct} managers, scrum masters, sales, etc.)? If so, perhaps the layoffs are a good thing—in my experience, the worst tech companies to work for are those dominated by non-technical employees. Perhaps layoffs are being used as a blunt instrument to shift the balance away…

[flagged]

Hey, never said otherwise! Just wondering if non-devs are being laid off disproportionately.

For the record, I think layoffs of tech employees can also be a good thing (if done right, i.e. solely with respect to performance). Layoffs can be a great opportunity to purge underperforming dead weight employees en masse who have only managed to stick around because the process to PIP them is too onerous.

Sadly, performance did not seem to be the primary criterion for laying people off at many companies.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hey, never said otherwise! Just wondering if non-devs are being laid off disproportionately. For the record, I think layoffs of tech employees can also be a good thing (if done right, i.e. solely with respect to performance). Layoffs can be a great opportunity to purge underperforming dead weight employees en masse who have only managed to stick around because the process to PIP them is too onerous. Sadly, performanc…

>Sadly, performance did not seem to be the primary criterion for laying people off at many companies.

That's because layoffs are meant to adjust headcount due to changing business conditions (budget, etc). If you're using performance as a criterion, the word you're looking for is "terminated for cause" or "terminated for performance".

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#67
post #33

I can't find another job even with a FAANG background. The market is brutal. Maybe my only choice is to start a startup.

The biggest reason I've seen FAANG candidates (mostly Google, FB, and Amazon) get rejected is too much experience with proprietary technology, esp. if they've been there a long time, like 5+ years. I've even spoke to some FAANG candidates who think their internal proprietary tech is widely known or commercial products.

It's more complicated then that.

For example the right decisions in a small company vs. FANG is often quite different, potentially outright the opposite. Not just because of differences in people, time and money resources but also due to scale.

Like you spending a day or even week to optimize something to be a bit faster can save millions in just a year if used on the scale of google. But in a startup the pure salary cost of spending a day on it can easily be more then it saves in 5 years. And due to the small number of time and human resources the actual cost can easily be much higher.

You can see this in some of the design decisions around open source tooling from FANG companies. They are often designed for a context of: "Many highly qualified people working at the same time at the same project. And micro optimizations being important."

But what smaller companies have is: "A small group of very mixed qualified people working one it. Rarely more then very small number at the same time on the same component. Most micro optimizations being clearly out of scope. Constantly chasing a schedule where a single larger delay can be a catastrophe for the company."

For example for a FANK company breaking changes on internal APIs are often a no go, but for small companies they can often be a no brainier especially if it doesn't involve any migration complications.

Or for example for Google a single service stopping is often worse then it running amok and creating a mess, for a small company which might only provide one or two services such a mess can mean insolvency, but an outage might not.

Or for example in a small company having a repo where you define all the (internal & external) APIs and use it to generate glue code to bind all your services together in a "type safe" manner can be a grate thing to have (if you have the right tooling). For a FANG company where not just many people but many teams might work on code interacting with the same overlapping APIs this isn't a viable approach at all.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, never said otherwise! Just wondering if non-devs are being laid off disproportionately. For the record, I think layoffs of tech employees can also be a good thing (if done right, i.e. solely with respect to performance). Layoffs can be a great opportunity to purge underperforming dead weight employees en masse who have only managed to stick around because the process to PIP them is too onerous. Sadly, performanc…

>Sadly, performance did not seem to be the primary criterion for laying people off at many companies. That's because layoffs are meant to adjust headcount due to changing business conditions (budget, etc). If you're using performance as a criterion, the word you're looking for is "terminated for cause" or "terminated for performance".

That’s not necessarily the case, especially at smaller companies.

A friend of mine leads a department of ~20 people at a midsize company (~1000 employees). They were told late one afternoon that the company was announcing a 10% layoff the following day, that they needed to reduce their departmental payroll accordingly, and to submit a list of employees to lay off by next morning, using performance as the primary criterion for whom to cut. This was feasible and fair, since a manager of 20 people can know exactly how well each of them is performing. (In fact, the employees my friend ended up dismissing were ones they’d wanted to get rid of for a while, but didn’t quite meet the stringent criteria for PIPing, so it was actually a relief to be able to let them go.)

At bigger companies, layoffs cannot get decided with such granularity (decisions come from several levels above managers familiar with each and every employee being laid off), so individual performance is a much smaller factor.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt that. Might be true for younger people who were laid off by the "LIFO rule" (i.e., cheaper severance), but anyone with a 10y+ career would at least think twice before joining a startup... Especially in Europe, but these kinds of stories are never about Europe.

What, if you were laid off with 10+ years of savings from a bigtech salary and 30-40 weeks of severance and continuing benefits, you wouldn't (after a few weeks to process and recover) begin hammering out a prototype to that idea that's been in the back of your head for the last 5-10 years? You could burn half a year and still have ten weeks to do a job search.

You assume too much regarding parting terms, and I don't see any mention of family responsibilities in that rosy scenario of yours.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a tech company? Is ford a tech company? Is Goldman Sacha a tech company?

Yeah, that's a good question. Considering main revenue sources Google is a marketing/ad company and "tech" is simply an implementation detail. I think a good litmus test is - if the Internet would die then would a given company be killed off by that. Ford and GS can function without it (it would be much harder but still they did that for decades) but for Google that would be the end.

> if the Internet would die then would a given company be killed off by that

That would select for Internet companies, not tech companies. And neither of the two is a strict subset of the other.

> for Google that would be the end

With no Internet, we'd still need comms, and mobile phones (and Android) would seem to be important there. And if that wasn't enough to keep them alive, they'd buy companies to do that.

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