Live data from Hacker News

A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

blog.glyph.im

61–70 of 126 posts

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#61
TLDR: First try and see if there a non-obvious cause, like a disability, a situation with someone else on the team, ect. Then either fire them or re-assign them to a different role.

---

I think it's important to set clear expectations early and explain common sense. Sometimes things that you think are obvious aren't.

I also think it's important to be a lot more introspective about your current situation and management style. I've seen "nice but incompetent" happen because a manager didn't set clear expectations at the beginning, and just assumed subordinates would "figure it out."

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#62
post #3

I don’t understand how this is an issue that needs anxiety. Fire them. I’ve been this person early in my life, and deserved to be fired. Incompetent but nice is still, literally, incompetent. Incompetent people get dismissed.

It’s not that easy in real life. A couple of years ago we had a guy who was really nice, someone who you really connect with when you first meet him. But he never produced any working code.

We have a set of “onboarding tasks” that are well defined and have definite definitions of “done”. He didn’t complete them. His team lead gave him a series of “easy” bugs (think, change this error message to that error message). He couldn’t figure that out. He required lots of pair programming and oversight.

We tried to do a PIP and gave him unlimited access to our top devs for help. We really tried everything. We should have cut it off much earlier than we did, but he was just so nice. It was hard.

Near the end when we were justifying fire him, we went through all his records. It turned out that I did his technical interview and failed him (I had forgotten by the time I got involved with his PIP) But the rest of staff loved him and thought he has lots of potential. He didn’t. We really tried.

It was gut wrenching firing him. He was a real person who we all liked. But he was just too much of a drag and we are a small company and don’t have the buffer to pay people to do negative work.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#63
post #10

ADHD is probably the problem under this behaviour. Can’t complete tasks and underperform but want to help other, be part of the team. People with ADHD have developed coping behaviour to fit in but have very low control on their executive functions, they can’t keep working on something that doesn’t catch their attention. It’s very hard to understand for someone who don’t have the problem "why can’t they just do it!" W…

I hear this all the time, and these workplace-focused descriptions of "phases of underperformance" really apply to me, but I don't think it's ADHD. I can focus on all sorts of things when I try, and when I look up symptoms of ADHD, maybe just 5% apply to me.

For me, I've joined new teams and crushed it for a few weeks where it was at least expected performance, but then I quickly fall off a cliff for seemingly no reason. Anxiety compounds this, and I can identify why I've sometimes been slow to crawl out, but the initial fall is always difficult to diagnose.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#64

I'm now in my second role where this applies to me. The first one, I was fired from, but I chalked it up to inexperience. This time around I have a lot of experience under my belt, and for that reason it's weighing on me quite a lot. I'm finding myself digging into Kubernetes for the first time and no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to crack it. None of it makes any sense to me - I get what K8s is at a high…

It's not you. K8s' design is terrible: the combinatorial explosion of nouns to learn is specifically because the abstractions are bad. It's quintessential of an industry that self-selects for high comfort with complexity.

>> It's quintessential of an industry that self-selects for high comfort with complexity.

I didn't know that's a thing! I'm currently suffering in a company that embraces overly complex development tools and processes. It's as far from "one click build" as one could ever imagine. The team is split in 2 countries with ours being the new group. One of the other recent hires is as lost as me (he's more on top of the tools but has no objectives!), so at least I know it's not just me. But I've got life stressors going on now too, so that certainly contributes.

Oh what I'd give right now for a project with some hardware, challenging goals, just a C compiler and decent pay.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#65
Quadrants are useful to visualize the problem along a couple binary spectrums, but the process shouldn't stop there.

A more evolved process would avoid using such vague words to define problems that are complex, dynamic, interdependent, social, and psychological. Performance and expectations are wicked problems.

Determinations of performance and expectations are often closed and siloed as opposed to being open and transparent. That's a cultural problem arising from "difficult conversations". Organizations often make the mistake of over-simplifying these conversations.

I can think of few chasms between performance and expectations in twenty years that was reflective of reality. Organizations make sense of those situations slowly, poorly, and privately, if at all.

Why? Because if their cultures were reflective, protean, or sensemaking at all, they were closed conversations, ill-defined, informal, and not repeated on a regular basis.

A few examples I've sampled from my work:

- Numerous individuals suffered from self-medication while receiving little care or concern.

- Founders copy emotional traits of Jobs, Gates, Musk, and Torvalds not the intellectual ones.

- Trauma: ill-defined roles, changing expectations, and stack ranking.

Personally, I'll take competent but rough-around-the-edges because my experience has been that my most talented coworkers all fit that description no matter their education and experience while realizing that the edges are where the most important insights occur.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#66

In his "Make good art" speech [1] Neil Gaiman mentions a third axis in the good-bad/nice-jerk graph, namely, "delivers the work on time". I'm not sure how good it would work for software development, but the comic book world has plenty of successful artists like that - their art is okay at best, but they have plenty of work because they reliably hit their deadlines. Assuming your worker is not entirely terrible, I al…

That works better in comic books than software. As an example, I have a coworker who is pretty good in terms of domain knowledge, and can push out work pretty fast, but he does things like write migrations that insert rows of data one at a time in a loop, or adds three layers of almost do-nothing wrapper functions around business logic that doesn't need to be abstracted. He's made a lot of useful contributions but th…

This reflects more poorly on your engineering leadership than your coworker imo. Where are the guardrails? Why aren't his migrations going through a pull request where you can review and say "this should be a batch insert?" If PRs are in place but nobody speaks up, why is the culture afraid of pointing these things out?

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#67
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds a lot like me. I do get a TON done, am always working hard, but I can’t single thread to save my soul. I have a tendency to work on 6+ tickets at the same time which has in the past clashed with what management has wanted - clean single threaded work that looks nice on a kanban board. For instance I have a project right now that in linear time has taken about a week but has taken well over a month in actu…

The problem with a lot of stuff in flight and nothing shipped is it’s extremely expensive. You’re basically holding onto inventory that isn’t able to be sold. It isn’t people jamming workflows, it’s economics.

Agreed. Sometimes I have multiple outstanding pull requests against the same code for features different enough to be different tasks. It rarely works out well but for whatever reason I don't notice it happening until the end.

Alternatives are: overloading pull requests with multiple distinct tasks (bad), sitting on my hands (bad), updating the code for each PR as others are merged (bad, error prone), or creating pull requests that merge into other branches pending review (less bad but annoying to maintain). I tend to do the latter.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#68
I feel like this at times can fit me.

I am great at a lot of tasks.

I am bad at some of my tasks, which makes me disinterested in doing them.

I am clearly an expert level at some % of my tasks, but show very little growth in the other ones as the pain of failing repeatedly with no hope doesn't seem worth it when I can focus on what I am great at, and accomplish a lot of things.

Obviously I need to either improve at the tasks I'm bad at, change roles, or find other people to do the tasks I'm bad at.

I keep trying every few months to really attack what I'm bad at, but there's always so much work it's easy to get handed a task I'm great at, and just do that.

I'm told by my manager I am doing a great job, because it's easy to focus on the tasks I'm great at.

I feel like I'm doing a very bad job, because it's easy to focus on the tasks I'm bad at.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article, and the one it was written in response to are both about the scenario where someone is under-performing because they are incompetent, not capable of becoming competent and really nice and likable. What both articles missed is that in many organizations nice, incompetent people often get promoted to leadership positions and become the subject of business books and bad memes... and unfortunately go on to…

Maybe this is a language thing, but if someone underperforms because of health issues or burnout (like discussed in the article) I would not call them incompetent.

I agree with you - health and burnout aren't incompetence.

Re: A Response to Jacob Kaplan-Moss’s “Incompetent but Nice”

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works better in comic books than software. As an example, I have a coworker who is pretty good in terms of domain knowledge, and can push out work pretty fast, but he does things like write migrations that insert rows of data one at a time in a loop, or adds three layers of almost do-nothing wrapper functions around business logic that doesn't need to be abstracted. He's made a lot of useful contributions but th…

This reflects more poorly on your engineering leadership than your coworker imo. Where are the guardrails? Why aren't his migrations going through a pull request where you can review and say "this should be a batch insert?" If PRs are in place but nobody speaks up, why is the culture afraid of pointing these things out?

Oh, I totally agree, had I been the technical lead for that team I would have flagged a lot of that stuff. As it stands the lead for that team is also on the nice but incompetent spectrum to some degree, and since the code base they're working on is an inherited dumpster fire I get the sense people on that team have mostly given up on code quality.
Post reply on HN