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Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

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Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#61

Post by GeorgeTirebiter »

pa7x1 wrote: post #52
alangibson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics. That used to be my view, but it turns I was wrong. The standard model was complete in the 1970's, and everything beyond it since then has been fruitless. Axions excluded, the other kind of axion excluded, sterile neutrinos excluded to make just a fe…

Roger Penrose is a remarkable mathematician and has made profound contributions to mathematics and its application to General Relativity. But his opinions on Quantum Mechanics, (e.g., its relationship with conscience) are very fringe, when not outright quack-material. Nobody takes him seriously on this topic and he has made no recognizable contribution or proved anything that would grant any credibility to the idea.…

This implies, I believe, that further progress refining physics will result in similar great societal advances. This can only be based on belief. Maybe. And perhaps a spectacular future awaits us, due to some present-day discovery that now seems insignificant. Yes, one can point to many such instances in the past; but what gives us confidence this will continue into the future?

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#62

Post by alangibson »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #48
alangibson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics. That used to be my view, but it turns I was wrong. The standard model was complete in the 1970's, and everything beyond it since then has been fruitless. Axions excluded, the other kind of axion excluded, sterile neutrinos excluded to make just a fe…

I think her name is Sabine Hossenfelder.

Correct. My bad working from memory.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#63

Post by javajosh »

ISL wrote: post #51
lumost wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be an interesting example of a “zombie” organization. Fermilab exists to push the boundaries of particle physics. We stopped wanting to do that, or at the very least outlay the capital to do that. We likewise don’t want people at fermilab doing other things with their time. Meaning that they don’t have much to do but go through the motions. We have a few of these in science, it would arguably be better in th…

There's a further subtlety -- the US would like to retain the capability to do this work without funding the entirety of the work itself. A lot of the expertise and infrastructure is unique and world-class. In my view, the entire field is on pause awaiting the development of truly transformative accelerator technology, then it's off to the races again. " In that sense, this new knowledge has all to do with honor and…

>would like to retain the capability to do this work without funding the entirety of the work itself

Oh, then that's easy: just pay them to keep reading work in the field, maybe write a blog, and get into the theoretical side. I'm sure plenty of folks would jump at the opportunity to be on "professional standby" in a field they find fascinating.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#64

Post by RedCondor »

>Theoretical physicist and Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg had this to say on [the SSC's] cancellation:

>>Spending for the Superconducting Super Collider had become a target for a new class of congressmen elected in 1992. They were eager to show that they could cut what they saw as Texas pork, and they didn’t feel that much was at stake. The cold war was over, and discoveries at the SSC were not going to produce anything of immediate practical importance.

https://redsails.org/concessions/#education-and-research-its...

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#65

Post by killjoywashere »

yummypaint wrote: post #42

My Fermilab story: when I was designing my dissertation experiment it became clear that i would need ~$100k in silicon strip charged particle detectors, and that no company would ever microbond the thousands of connections for me due to the low volume. Fermilab gave me detectors that had been QC rejects from the outer barrel of the CMS detector at CERN for free, and bonded them to my boards for essentially materials…

Reminds me of this story:

https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassb...

There are continuous technical workforce challenges in science because the methods keep advancing. If only there were money it. Instead we have engineers, scientists, and physicians driving Uber and we outsource and offshore the entire scientific supply chain.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#66

Post by paganel »

pa7x1 wrote: post #37
alangibson wrote: post #23

The real problem is that theoretical particle physics had hit a local optimum that they can't break out of. String theory hasn't panned out, quantum gravity hasn't panned out, and no one really knows where to go next.

This is a complete misunderstanding of the state of physics. The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics. The Standard Model has some issues but it's, in principle, a valid effective description of all the fundamental forces minus gravity. The issue is that quantum effects of gravity are negligi…

> follow our advances in physics.

I'd say physics without the related "technological/engineering prowess" (i.e. the experiments to back said physics up) is just wishy-washy fancy-sounding maths.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#67

Post by moffkalast »

DeathArrow wrote: post #40
rektide wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the adage goes but sometimes one man's junk just becomes another person's hoarding.

What would be the fine difference between hoarding and collecting?

Actually using or curating the stuff.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#69

Post by stametseater »

DeathArrow wrote: post #40
rektide wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the adage goes but sometimes one man's junk just becomes another person's hoarding.

What would be the fine difference between hoarding and collecting?

Whether or not your home smells like rotting garbage. There is a big difference between filling some shelves with obsolete gadgets, and having a big pile of rotting food covering every food preparation surface in your kitchen because you have a severe untreated mental illness. Let's not whitewash the reality of hoarding to shame some nerds for having obscure interests.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#70

Post by pasttense01 »

I think it is a poor idea for the Department of Energy to being hiring businesses or organizations to be managing the National Laboratories. This means there are three levels of management: the DOE, the managing organization/business (such as the University of Chicago) and the lab itself. Eliminate this middle layer--so that management is either done by the DOE or the laboratory.
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