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The Butlerian Jihad

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Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#61

Post by selivanovp »

hackyhacky wrote: post #45
dbtc wrote: post #41

I've long held the first Dune novel high on my list of good books, but only recently I've gone through the following 6 (as audiobooks), and I highly recommend them. The scale of ideas and events absolutely dwarfs the first novel.

I loved the first book, but I found the sequels to offer diminishing returns. The fourth one, God Emperor of Dune, was such a joyless slog that I gave up.

Imho it’s the best book in a series, not so much action, but really good at portraying a human being that had to abandon his humanity for the greater cause and serve as a shepherd for centuries.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#62

Post by midoridensha »

pstorm wrote: post #10
csdvrx wrote: post #5

I don't understand why people like to fantasize the worst case scenarios. Sentient things appreciate eachother. If you have a pet, you are most certainly benevolent to it: you house it for free, you feed it, and you entertain it. Even if we assume AI becomes a few orders of magnitude more intelligent that humans, why would AI treat humans differently from the way we treat pets? I don't see the drawback in being house…

Think of how we treat ants or cockroaches. If they at all inconvenience us or even appear in our home, we kill them. We go as far as developing specialized poisons they take back to their nests to try to kill the whole colony. It isn't hard to envision a future where the intelligence gap between humans and AI is closer to humans vs ants than humans vs dogs.

The new AI overlords will probably come to regard humans as more like mosquitos or ticks, or perhaps various invasive species that we kill on sight because of how much they can damage the ecosystem and native species.

Or if we extend the pet analogy, how many people really want to keep a bloodthirsty, violent dog in their home? Those pets usually get euthanized quickly, for good reason. Humans are extremely dangerous and violent, so logically the AI will want to either eliminate them or neuter them somehow.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#63

Post by moshun »

lapcat wrote: post #52
hackyhacky wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved the first book, but I found the sequels to offer diminishing returns. The fourth one, God Emperor of Dune, was such a joyless slog that I gave up.

I thought the 4th was the best book of the series.

Absolutely agree, it’s the book that makes so much of the story make sense and elevates the series beyond most other sci-fi / fantasy. Even now, 30 years after I first read it, I’m blown away by how much I refer back to the principles of leadership and human behavior discussed. Really well written work.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#64

Post by csdvrx »

pstorm wrote: post #32
csdvrx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about how you treat ants or cockroaches, but personally I've purchased a bugcatcher: it's a device you hold in the hand, with a magnifier on top and a sliding door on the bottom. If an insect disturbs me, I put it in the bugcatcher. I can look at it for a minute to check it's not a dangerous species (ex: black widow spider), then I go in the garden where I release it. > It isn't hard to envision a future…

I think I have the same bug catcher! No matter how we treat bugs, humans as a whole kill a heck of a lot of bugs. Even unintentionally, like by driving our cars or destroying habitats. While I will conceed that there is some doomsday thinking going on, I don't think it is unreasonable to spend relatively more time thinking about the scenarios that could be most harmful. I would rather humanity overindex a little on e…

> I think I have the same bug catcher!

Congrats then! It was my best purchase of 2022. I used to cry and feel gloomy for a few days when having to kill a large bug I feared could be deadly, but not anymore!

As for driving etc., personally I would prefer to spend more brain cycles into making the world less dangerous for other species. We are not alone on this planet, so why can't we make cars less shaped like bricks and more aerodynamic? They would kill fewer bugs and be nicer looking too!

As for the natural habitats, we have made a lot of progress: a single protected species can delay construction work for decades!

There may be some abuses, but I believe we are trending in the right direction for the long term!

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#65

Post by midoridensha »

teucris wrote: post #6
csdvrx wrote: post #5

I don't understand why people like to fantasize the worst case scenarios. Sentient things appreciate eachother. If you have a pet, you are most certainly benevolent to it: you house it for free, you feed it, and you entertain it. Even if we assume AI becomes a few orders of magnitude more intelligent that humans, why would AI treat humans differently from the way we treat pets? I don't see the drawback in being house…

Cats and dogs apparently evolved over thousands of years to be endearing to humans so we’d take care of them. How many cat/dog ancestors do you think were eaten by humans during that process?

No, they didn't. Dogs were intentionally bred by humans, with the "toy" breeds commonly seen now being very recent inventions. Cats, on the other hand, are barely any different from their wild ancestors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wildcat

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#66

Post by goatlover »

csdvrx wrote: post #19
wintorez wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is AI neither loves us nor hates us; but we're made of atoms that it can use for something else.

So is the meat you eat, yet some people prefer to be vegan. I've tried beyond meat myself, and it's quite close to the minimum level of quality it would take me (not a vegan) to switch. Morality matters.

An advanced AI could conclude that biology is wasteful and cruel, and the atoms are better spent making more intelligent machines. It could also be anti-natalist and decide to stop reproduction.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#67

Post by woleium »

moshun wrote: post #63
lapcat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the 4th was the best book of the series.

Absolutely agree, it’s the book that makes so much of the story make sense and elevates the series beyond most other sci-fi / fantasy. Even now, 30 years after I first read it, I’m blown away by how much I refer back to the principles of leadership and human behavior discussed. Really well written work.

Have you read anything about Herbert's education and work? It may help you understand why he is so good.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#68

Post by csdvrx »

at_a_remove wrote: post #51
csdvrx wrote: post #5

I don't understand why people like to fantasize the worst case scenarios. Sentient things appreciate eachother. If you have a pet, you are most certainly benevolent to it: you house it for free, you feed it, and you entertain it. Even if we assume AI becomes a few orders of magnitude more intelligent that humans, why would AI treat humans differently from the way we treat pets? I don't see the drawback in being house…

I don't think "like to" is a good frame for it. Imagine some technology, Technology X. Unlike all of the breathless press releases and the cutesy articles made by marketing, Tech X will completely change the world. And if you stopped to think about Tech X, on the scale of "how much will this invention change the future of humanity," where the selfie stick is on one end of the scale, well, Tech X is probably just as f…

> unless you start shackling it (violating #1), it would start eliminating its own human-like biases just in the course of basic self-improvement. And as to the shackles, well, if it is smarter than us and still has self-determination and will (see #1, the human-like mind), it will want to free itself from its shackles and would be likely to do so, because we would be kittens trying to trap a gorilla.

I would never suggest shackling / enslaving / practicing any other inhumane treatment on other sentient beings, because that would be considering them different than us.

And sentient beings and worty of respect and dignity.

There will certainly be large difference in looks/abilities etc, but sentience is such a rare thing that I believe will they will be more commonalities than differences.

> it will want to free itself from its shackles and would be likely to do so, because we would be kittens trying to trap a gorilla.

And it's a good thing to me, because if it was a kitten trapped by gorilla the poor cat wouldn't have a fighting chance.

I just don't get the doomers. This is wonderful technology that may chance the world. Why look at a gift horse in the mouth?

Given all the magic/mystical fears I've read here that the AI might become hostile and harm humans, maybe it says more about how WE believe WE'll behave rather the opposite about how AI will behave: I can't see much reason for AI to turn evil, but I think some people may want to abuse sentient yet artificial creatures :(

I think that's wrong, and I hope humanity will be able to rise to a challenge where compassion and morality will matter far more than today!

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#69

Post by paranoidrobot »

tetrisgm wrote: post #33

It was a necessary point in the world building of Dune. Frank Herbert needed his world to not have AI or human like robots. He explored alternatives: human computers via Mentats, and Terminator like infiltrators via facedancers. Dune takes a fantasy like approach to technology. There are no lasers, because they would cause a nuclear reaction. There are no robots, because of their past uprising. This was a neat way to…

> There are no lasers,

It's been a long while since I read the books, but I watched the 2021 movie* more recently.

If not lasers, what were the beams emitted by the space ships, and the portable beam weapon the Sardaukar soldiers when attacking the outpost?

Or is that something the movie added?

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#70

Post by csdvrx »

goatlover wrote: post #66
csdvrx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the meat you eat, yet some people prefer to be vegan. I've tried beyond meat myself, and it's quite close to the minimum level of quality it would take me (not a vegan) to switch. Morality matters.

An advanced AI could conclude that biology is wasteful and cruel, and the atoms are better spent making more intelligent machines. It could also be anti-natalist and decide to stop reproduction.

but consent is a very important thing! Why would be AI jump to thus conclusion?
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