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I don't owe you scala-tools.org

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Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#61

Post by ww520 »

soc88 wrote: post #51
bmelton wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it is you missing the point. They're his keys. If I quit the company I'm working for, they can't just take all all my keys because at some point they gave me some. This is no different than my old neighbor, Mr. Taylor. He used to let us use the pool in his backyard until one of the kids pooped in it. He stopped letting those kids come to the pool. It's his pool, and it's his choice who can and can't use it.…

I never used his pool. I just think that his behavior is intended to maximize the potential damage to everyone, he is well aware of that and does it on purpose, because someone hurt his feelings. In my opinion there are other, more constructive options available.

Can you prove that? I'm not familiar with the Scala drama.

Even if that innuendo is true, why don't you blame the one who hurts his feeling? Instead of blaming him. Open source developers are human, too. They have taken on far too much abuses from ungrateful users.

I don't see the need for David to be a doormat to every abusive user out there. I would snap too and say fuck it, you guys are on your own.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#62

Post by soc88 »

ww520 wrote: post #61
soc88 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never used his pool. I just think that his behavior is intended to maximize the potential damage to everyone, he is well aware of that and does it on purpose, because someone hurt his feelings. In my opinion there are other, more constructive options available.

Can you prove that? I'm not familiar with the Scala drama. Even if that innuendo is true, why don't you blame the one who hurts his feeling? Instead of blaming him. Open source developers are human, too. They have taken on far too much abuses from ungrateful users. I don't see the need for David to be a doormat to every abusive user out there. I would snap too and say fuck it, you guys are on your own.

After people finally figured out that he was leaving (almost no one knew of that) they offered to take over the complete responsibility, what happens? Suddenly he wants to keep the domain, forcing everyone to pull and update their documentation, packages, artifact IDs, Maven POMs out there, because they can't use it anymore. And the promised transition of accounts to another provider just won't work for all people who entered an id of "org.scala-tools", because most other providers require that the person publishing an artifact also controls the domain name.

The whole thing is basically maximized for pain and wasted hours of transitioning, migrating and repacking.

Have a look at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3495303 for the circumstances how he "told" everyone he was leaving. I visited the Lift IRC channel an hour ago and asked what their stance was on Pollak leaving Lift/Scala. They had no idea and asked for a link. So much for "nobody stepped up for maintenance". Of course nobody can step up if nobody knows.

It is not acceptable that someone who expected that he would transfer the domain to the people maintaining it insulted him, but how can this be communicated to that individual if no body knows who it was. "Somebody insulted me" doesn't help to resolve that matter.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#63

Post by zak_mc_kracken »

soc88 wrote: post #34
SkyMarshal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the community knows he's not holding the whole of them responsible. David is a well known, smart, decent, civil guy among them. And maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere he threatened to "use the site for damaging the reputation of the Scala community as a whole".

As far as I have seen until now the community feels different. >> And maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere he threatened to "use the site for damaging >> the reputation of the Scala community as a whole". > My way of working through my sadness about opportunities lost, my way of > mourning these losses will be expressed on scala-tools.org. I will use > something I had a mighty hand in building to express sadn…

> But this wasn't the first blog post with non-constructive criticism, (rambling, ... whatever you want to call it) and a deactivated comment system.

Given the hostile responses he's had on Twitter, I can't blame him for not allowing comments on his blog. This doesn't help repair the already bad reputation that the Scala community has.

He doesn't owe scala-tools.org to anyone for the same reason he doesn't owe readers of his blog comments: it's his blog, his rules.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#64

Post by zak_mc_kracken »

soc88 wrote: post #36
nknight wrote: post #27

The response to these incidents is depressingly predictable. "Yes he has the right to shut it down, but..." -- no, there is no "but". Consider this: An employee quits his job. Do you say "Yes, he has the right to quit, but..."? No. There is no "but". He has the right to quit, period. Involuntary servitude isn't allowed even when someone is getting paid for it, what the hell makes you think it's acceptable when they a…

This comparison is just deeply flawed. Point is, he can do whatever he wants, but his actions are solely designed to make the live of everyone else a bit harder, just for the sake of it.

You are over-dramatizing, and you are doing the exact same thing that the OP said: thinking you can add a "but" to what is a 100% personal decision.

Reread the comment above and take the time to understand it.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#65

Post by zak_mc_kracken »

soc88 wrote: post #62
ww520 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you prove that? I'm not familiar with the Scala drama. Even if that innuendo is true, why don't you blame the one who hurts his feeling? Instead of blaming him. Open source developers are human, too. They have taken on far too much abuses from ungrateful users. I don't see the need for David to be a doormat to every abusive user out there. I would snap too and say fuck it, you guys are on your own.

After people finally figured out that he was leaving (almost no one knew of that) they offered to take over the complete responsibility, what happens? Suddenly he wants to keep the domain, forcing everyone to pull and update their documentation, packages, artifact IDs, Maven POMs out there, because they can't use it anymore. And the promised transition of accounts to another provider just won't work for all people wh…

> After people finally figured out that he was leaving (almost no one knew of that) they offered to take over the complete responsibility, what happens? Suddenly he wants to keep the domain

This is in complete contradiction with what dpp said (he asked for help a few months ago and nobody answered). So either you or dpp is lying.

Considering that his call for help is well documented, I think you are the one spreading false information.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#66

Post by soc88 »

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #63
soc88 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I have seen until now the community feels different. >> And maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere he threatened to "use the site for damaging >> the reputation of the Scala community as a whole". > My way of working through my sadness about opportunities lost, my way of > mourning these losses will be expressed on scala-tools.org. I will use > something I had a mighty hand in building to express sadn…

> But this wasn't the first blog post with non-constructive criticism, (rambling, ... whatever you want to call it) and a deactivated comment system. Given the hostile responses he's had on Twitter, I can't blame him for not allowing comments on his blog. This doesn't help repair the already bad reputation that the Scala community has. He doesn't owe scala-tools.org to anyone for the same reason he doesn't owe reader…

I think responses will be less friendly if the only communication channel available is limited to 140 letters, that's just a limitation of the medium.

Responses towards constructive criticism have mostly been friendly, honest and helpful, I can't complain about that.

I think there is more talk about "bad reputation" than actual "bad reputation".

In the end, no one is arguing that. But there is a difference between what a person _could_ do and what is sensible.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#67

Post by soc88 »

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #65
soc88 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After people finally figured out that he was leaving (almost no one knew of that) they offered to take over the complete responsibility, what happens? Suddenly he wants to keep the domain, forcing everyone to pull and update their documentation, packages, artifact IDs, Maven POMs out there, because they can't use it anymore. And the promised transition of accounts to another provider just won't work for all people wh…

> After people finally figured out that he was leaving (almost no one knew of that) they offered to take over the complete responsibility, what happens? Suddenly he wants to keep the domain This is in complete contradiction with what dpp said (he asked for help a few months ago and nobody answered). So either you or dpp is lying. Considering that his call for help is well documented, I think you are the one spreading…

Oh c'mon. I know and read that message too. How many people else did? Not many.

It is not like someone like dpp doesn't know how to get the right audience for his issues.

Additionally this wouldn't have been a solution as the domain still remained in his possession.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#68

Post by snprbob86 »

bigiain wrote: post #55
kstenerud wrote: post #10

It's about managing user expectations, which David has done rather poorly. People have short memories. When you're going to shut something down, you really should put up a HUGE javascript timer at the top of the page saying: 83 days, 14 hours, 23 minutes, 11 seconds until this site shuts down. Contact me if you can take over maintenance. Unless it's constantly in their face, they won't feel the urgency, and so they w…

I'm not sure I agree with that at all. Someone retiring from participation in any particular community has no obligation to enforce any sense of urgency on the remaining people. This all reads to me as though the "fight against human nature" is revealing more about the currently-offended section of the Scala community that about David. From my reading, he let them know he was out many months ago, and their reaction w…

> has no obligation

Maybe so, but it would have prevented (or at least reduced) the backlash. Many people don't follow all the mailing lists or core-contributor communication channels, so a badge on the page to alert the casual users would have been a nice thing to do. Sure, he has no duty or obligation, but he knew people were using it, so he knew people were missing it, so he could have facilitated a more graceful transition if he wanted to maximize good will.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#69

Post by moonchrome »

shinratdr wrote: post #18
bad_user wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I would rather have people contribute to open-source and quit when they want. I rather prefer the "clusterfucks" you mention, versus the alternative. That's the nature of open-source that people don't understand: it's not about getting stuff for free, although that's a nice side-effect. Instead it's about having the freedom to fork it. So if you find yourself in such a situation, either donate enough money…

> So if you find yourself in such a situation, either donate enough money to keep the maintainer happy or step up and contribute. I think saying essentially "throw unlimited funds at it with no promise of a solution or 'patch it yourself'" is also simply glossing over the problem. "I prefer it" is a great justification for you, it doesn't solve the issue for anyone else though and it's not a productive line of thinki…

>throw unlimited funds at it with no promise of a solution or 'patch it yourself'

Riighht... because support, contractors/integrators don't exist in the open source world.

The fact that the source is available is just another fallback on top of others. As someone who actually deployed closed source systems in production I can't even begin to describe how superior the opensource alternative is. Basically putting your project at the mercy of some corporate third world tech support department and three layers of bullshit between you and the guy writing code, priced as gold. When you trace down race conditions in binaries/using DTrace and send a detailed description of the problem only to get to some Indian dude who doesn't even understand what you're trying to communicate - "dropping down to source and patch it yourself" is a utopia and being able to hire the guy who wrote it or sent patches is a dream.

Re: I don't owe you scala-tools.org

#70

Post by tbsdy »

soc88 wrote: post #44
ww520 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't see he forgot to return the keys (owned by the company). He asked for help to transition it off. No one came, so he just shut it down. Yes. I can see how everyone's life is a bit harder since he has stopped providing free product and service for them. Well, they had a free ride to begin with.

You are still missing it completely.

Please, tell us the point then.
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