China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#61

Post by grayhatter » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:06 AM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #53

grayhatter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here. Wow, you're just going to be all sorts of mean today... feels bad... But I think maybe I was unclear. I wasn't claiming the majority of the population in China was unhappy with their lives, or that we shouldn't believe them when they claim to be happy. My point was, it's bad policy to beli…

You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. This is a profoundly absurd claim. The fact that you don't understand that is absolutely shocking. Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... H…

> You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not.

I'm not, but seeing as you just want to scream at someone on the internet, while also attempting to straw man any argument I make. Which seem to me so that you can argue that opinions from a heavily censored country are more important than independent evaluations from experts. I'll simply respond with

no.

For anyone else following along, majority of the links I looked at, don't support his assertions, or missing enough context that they are deeply misleading. The remainder seems to be "what about [bad thing] in [other place]" It's dangerous to allow that to distract from the point.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#62

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:07 AM UTC

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #59

s1artibartfast wrote: post #40

It seems like most people in this thread missing the point of this statement. Section 2 is a clear condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. >The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. I don't think there is any other way to read this. Russia is not expanding a military Bloc . A "military bloc" is a set of countries with military alliance. This is perfectly in lin…

Shocker, China opposes NATO.

I completely agree. What is shocking is that some people can read this and think that it is some Pro USA anti Russia declaration

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#63

Post by fspeech » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:08 AM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #19

Kon5ole wrote: post #14

Mostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation. Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions,…

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

People usually use the word "democracy" as a synonym for "liberal democracies".

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#64

Post by yogthos » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:11 AM UTC

mopsi wrote: post #60

yogthos wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn't about having more parties, it's about having a government that represents the working majority. China has settled on a political path which is communism, this is why there are communist parties in China, while in US you have capitalist parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_C... Evidently, you weren't even aware of the fact that there are multiple parties in the country. Me…

> Evidently, you weren't even aware of the fact that there are multiple parties in the country. That's quite telling. People are often surprised that East Germany had multiple parties too; surprised for the same reason.

Meanwhile, nobody is surprised by the fact that both parties in US represent the exact same interests https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#65

Post by grayhatter » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:12 AM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #54

grayhatter wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest. > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyon…

Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl >My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the nor…

> You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor?

Yes, because you're not convincing anyone you're right. You're convincing people that you're kind of a dick. I have a large body of evidence claiming one thing, and the other side culminates in "just trust me bro". And because you're being such an asshole to both me and other commenters, I find it really hard to trust you, given I don't think you're operating in good faith.

> The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU.

No, it's not because my primary source of information is "western" explicitly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party which uses CCP, and because I'm on a predominantly "western" message board. I chose to use the more commonly understood initialism. Do you find ad hominem convincing yourself? Personally I find them either insulting, or distracting, and quite often distractions and red herrings are used to stifle conversations and the sharing of ideas. Which seems to be a theme across most of your comments here, you misunderstand a comment, and then bring up distractions from the topic quite a lot.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#66

Post by jszymborski » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:20 AM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #29

jszymborski wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have never thought when I woke up this morning that someone would try to sell me "China is a democracy", but here we are I guess

Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Some white dude from America who couldn't find China on a map surely knows better. Peak chauvinism here my friend.

If you think the ad hominum is going to bully me into accepting something akin to saying the sky is green and polka dotted then I suggest you change tact.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#67

Post by Kon5ole » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:27 AM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #30

Kon5ole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China was arguably a democracy of sorts before they changed their constitution to allow unlimited terms. Before that, they had two terms. Even though the next leader had to come from the same party, having a party with several million members means they actually had some form of general representation. Having a peaceful mandatory transfer of power from any individual after a set number of years is not the only requir…

This may shock you, but plenty of western countries don't have term limits. Merkel had a longer term than Xi for example, and nobody was screaming that Germany turned into a dictatorship as I recall. Ultimately, a democracy is a government that works in the interest of the majority and that's being held accountable to the majority. Chinese system seems to do a good job of that as evidenced by the fact that quality of…

Merkel did not have supreme power over Germany and was also supported by officials that do have term limits. The bundestag is re-elected every 4 years and could end Merkel’s chancellorship if she went nuts, and even if she went nuts she couldn’t do much damage since her powers were limited.

Any democracy that gives great power to its leader has term limits (or they are not a democracy for very long). Most democracies have both divided executive powers and also term limits.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#68

Post by mopsi » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:50 AM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #64

mopsi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evidently, you weren't even aware of the fact that there are multiple parties in the country. That's quite telling. People are often surprised that East Germany had multiple parties too; surprised for the same reason.

Meanwhile, nobody is surprised by the fact that both parties in US represent the exact same interests https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

I disagree with that, and the linked article says no such thing.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#69

Post by 2devnull » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 12:58 AM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #24

2devnull wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ukraine didn't seek out war. War was brought to Ukraine. Ukrainians are defending their nation from a belligerent invader. Ukrainians are fighting and dying for the mere right to be Ukrainian. That's as existential as it gets. You have understood nothing.

Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution.

If you are so righteous in your concern for the plight of Ukrainians, go there and help them! Otherwise you are like the guy who coerces his buddy into a fistfight while hiding safely in the shadows, like a miserable coward.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#70

Post by yogthos » Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 1:06 AM UTC

grayhatter wrote: post #65

yogthos wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl >My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the nor…

> You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? Yes, because you're not convincing anyone you're right. You're convincing people that you're kind of a dick. I have a large body of evidence claiming one thing, and the other side culminates in "just trust me bro". And because you're being such an asshole to both me and other commenters, I find it really hard…

If providing actual sources and concrete examples to back my arguments isn't convincing anyone, that really shows how lost Americans are. I've literally linked you Harvard studies in the reply. You're the one doing the whole trust me bro thing here buddy.

>No, it's not because my primary source of information is "western" explicitly

Once you actually read your source, you'll see that the official name of the party is indeed CPC, the Communist Party of China.

> The Chinese Communist Party (CCP), officially the Communist Party of China (CPC), is the founding and sole ruling party of the People's Republic of China (PRC).

Why ASU affiliated sources choose to call the party CCP I have no idea.

>Do you find ad hominem convincing yourself?

If you're going to use terms like ad hominem to make yourself sound smart then you should at least learn what they mean first.

Ad hominem, would be me saying that you are wrong because of poor quality of your character. However, I've actually provided factual sources to show why your argument is wrong here. Perhaps don't engage in debate on subjects you're utterly ignorant regarding and then you won't feel the need to feel insulted.

I understand your comment perfectly, and all you're doing here is using sophistry to distract from the fact that your comment was demonstrably asinine.