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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#61

Post by RetpolineDrama »

wnevets wrote: post #27
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Reminds me so much of the vaccine "debate", "no one gets polio anymore, why do I need to get the polio vaccine?"

I mean that is kind of the _ultimate_ goal isn't it?

-Vaccinate the population, eliminate the disease in humans

-Eliminate the disease in any of its natural reservoirs

Once you're certain it's gone why continue vaccination? There's cost to that and those resources can then be dedicated to "active" diseases (perhaps with the instructions for that vaccine archived somehow).

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#62

Post by lmpdev »

Is there an independent international body which inspects and reports on building standards noncompliance?

Even a stratified random sample of a few dozen buildings per country (based on location, size and cost of development) would likely reveal any evidence of systematic failures

It would be a nightmare to establish something like this as every country's laws and building standards are different. I do feel like this is bordering on a human rights issue however (right to life, adequate - nonlife-threatening housing)

This is tangental but a similar idea (somewhat) works for ensuring less developed Commonwealth nations conduct voting properly. Developed Commonwealth nations setup Commonwealth Observer Groups (COGs) who sample voting places and occasionally provide security such as the recent PNG elections

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#63

Post by kerpotgh »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #41
kerpotgh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well New York isn’t on an active fault line. I think California would fare pretty well, as much as can be expected after the big one.

I have heard that the issue with New York, is that we have this solid rock substrate, and the buildings are anchored directly to it. In Japan, I have heard that the buildings actually have some kind of "shock absorber" structure, in their basements, and lots of counterweights.

Yes they are anchored to the schist substrate. The point I’m trying to make is you generally don’t build to account for earthquakes if you’re not on a fault line.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#64

Post by wongarsu »

dmd wrote: post #38
mschuster91 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Or fire codes. Related off-topic reminder, in the hope it may save one life one day: please use this comment as a reminder to check upon the status of your smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms and fire extinguisher. At the very least every room where people sleep in should have a smoke alarm and every room with a furnace (boiler, oven, kitchen,…

> Fire extinguishers should be inspected by a licensed professional every two years I (in an affluent US east coast suburb) called my fire dept's non-emergency line to ask about this once a few years ago, and they told me this isn't something they do. So who does it?

In Europe there's a service from minimax, one of the biggest fire extinguisher manufacturers. So I guess check up on the manufacturer, fire protection consultants, or any place that sells them.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#65

Post by moosedev »

mschuster91 wrote: post #26
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Or fire codes. Related off-topic reminder, in the hope it may save one life one day: please use this comment as a reminder to check upon the status of your smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms and fire extinguisher. At the very least every room where people sleep in should have a smoke alarm and every room with a furnace (boiler, oven, kitchen,…

And check your fire exits, if you live in a larger building. Know where the closest one is. Know where an alternative one is. Check they’re not locked or blocked.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#66

Post by noir_lord »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #41
kerpotgh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well New York isn’t on an active fault line. I think California would fare pretty well, as much as can be expected after the big one.

I have heard that the issue with New York, is that we have this solid rock substrate, and the buildings are anchored directly to it. In Japan, I have heard that the buildings actually have some kind of "shock absorber" structure, in their basements, and lots of counterweights.

Active protection systems (big hydraulic dampers (passive and active)) and tuned mass dampers/diagonal dampers.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#67

Post by commandlinefan »

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> it's so frustrating

I feel the same way developing software - the only thing that ever matters, and has ever mattered (at least since I started developing software in 1992) is "meeting the date". Whatever corners can be cut to make the date are cut, and then the thing breaks in fairly predictable ways because corners were cut. It's maddeningly infuriating and I'm not even dealing with people's lives here. I can't even imagine having to put up with this attitude when people could actually die.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#68

Post by iamflimflam1 »

jl6 wrote: post #7

It’s not surprising at all that the lack of accountability goes right to the top, and it’s tragic that it takes an earthquake to expose the corruption. But Turkey is far from the only country with a corrupt, ticking-time-bomb of construction and infrastructure quality issues. Pretty much every low-to-middle income country has taken the semi-rational approach of cutting corners in order to do more with less. And the h…

Indeed - you just need to look at the UK cladding scandal to see this.

I mean ffs:

    In the 1980s, the Conservative Government introduced its 
    Deregulation Initiative; in consequence, the Building Act 
    1984 reduced building regulations from 306 pages to 24.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_cladding_crisis

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#69

Post by pizza234 »

andoma wrote: post #25

> In nearby Erzin county, however, not a single building collapsed. The local mayor and his predecessor told local media that they did not allow any illegal construction. Both used the same phrase: “My conscience is clear.” That mayor, Ökkeş Elmasoğlu, should perhaps run for president.

Very interesting the sad contrast with reality, in particular, considering that there has been an occurrence of this event already, and then lesson hasn't been learned:

> Construction amnesties, which allow owners to register unlicensed properties or ones that violate building codes in exchange for a fine, have made a bad situation much worse. Mr Erdogan’s government passed several such amnesties, the latest in 2018, ahead of general elections. The opposition backed the move, because it was popular with voters.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#70

Post by mschuster91 »

dmd wrote: post #38
mschuster91 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Or fire codes. Related off-topic reminder, in the hope it may save one life one day: please use this comment as a reminder to check upon the status of your smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms and fire extinguisher. At the very least every room where people sleep in should have a smoke alarm and every room with a furnace (boiler, oven, kitchen,…

> Fire extinguishers should be inspected by a licensed professional every two years I (in an affluent US east coast suburb) called my fire dept's non-emergency line to ask about this once a few years ago, and they told me this isn't something they do. So who does it?

Yeah, fire departments don't do that here in Germany as well... legal requirement is that the licensed professional has a license according to the norm DIN 14 406 pt. 4. I had a quick google about the situation in the US, turns out there seem to be zero requirements on who does an inspection [1] - utterly mind-boggling.

In your case I'd search for a company that is certified by NICET [2].

[1] https://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/publications-and-medi...

[2] https://www.nicet.org/certification-programs/electrical-and-...

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