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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#61
post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

This take is radically wrong, and you're just reinforcing OP's insecurities. How do you know that OP has a job at the expense of a white person? How do you know that OP isn't in fact the best candidate for the job? You're making a whole lot of assumptions here that are bordering on outright racism

> How do you know that OP has a job at the expense of a white person?

Which part of the parent's message says that he does?

What it does say that if an organisation gives preferential treatment to a certain group based on their skin color, then it follows, inevitably, that people with non-preferred skin color will lose to those with the preferred one, all else being equal. And thus, there will inevitably be "the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color" (or sex, or both). Whether it was OP or someone else who was preferred to that guy is unknowable, and thus ultimately irrelevant. But that must take place in an organisation that is truly committed to DEI; because otherwise this abbreviation is meaningless.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#62
post #4

I think you raise some good points, and I think there are ways to handle DEI hiring well, and ways not to do it well. IMHO, when it's done well, DEI hiring isn't about filling quotas or giving anyone an edge, but it's about making sure that everyone has an equal chance. I've been part of DEI hiring at a couple companies, and my role has been much more about answering questions and making sure that candidates start th…

That's not really DEI, though, that's equal opportunity. DEI is about putting your thumb on the scale for groups higher on the progressive stack, to redress the lack of social capital they've had due to systemic oppression and/or because if you just select for talent, experience, and drive, in certain fields like tech the candidate pool will just skew white/Asian anyway because of the established good ole boy networks.

I'd really rather it stop at equal opportunity also but the world of finance -- where it really counts -- is all in on DEI, and companies demonstrating insufficient virtue will get clobbered on their ESG scores and hence, stock valuations.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#63
post #33

> but creating townhall meetings and parading your black/brown employees around like show ponies is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling. It doesn't just undermine the self-esteem of a PoC, it undermines the self-esteem of white folks, too. Hiring or promoting people due to their skin color is just wrong, no matter what skin color that is. As a white dude, seeing my PoC teammates in the past celebrated not for…

> He has come up with some really ingenious solutions to tough problems that have allowed us to grow as a company....but we're celebrating him because he's black, not because he's a kickass engineer

The soft bigotry of low expectations.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#64
If you're dissatisfied with this stuff, I wouldn't talk to management to solve this, but instead I'd work on communicating with ESG funds and ask them to change their guidelines for their DEI initiatives. Let me explain.

The corporation you work for is just trying to get a better ESG score. The DEI initiative and programs were probably handed down in some quasi-government fashion from Blackrock and other ESG funds who chose investments and even board votes based on that. Your company's HR department might have had all this mandated from Blackrock who has a ton of control on the boards of publicly traded companies. Corporations have to regularly report their DEI initiatives to Blackrock and other ESG funds.

"Last week, BlackRock released its 2021 proxy voting guidelines for the U.S. and other major markets ... These updated materials demonstrate how BlackRock intends to pair higher expectations for corporate responsiveness across a number of topics, including diversity, equity and inclusion and environmental risk, with a greater willingness to vote against management where these expectations are not met."

"In 2021, BlackRock will expect disclosure of workforce demographics, such as gender, race, and ethnicity in line with the EEO-1 Survey, along with steps being taken to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion. Where BlackRock believes disclosures or practices fall short of market or peer practice, it may vote against members of the appropriate committee or support related shareholder proposals*."

https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2021/01/12/blackrocks-2021-p...

If you look throughout Blackrock's governance documents they talk about "Stakeholder Capitalism" which is a world economic forum program[1] to bring all sorts of influences into the running of companies besides shareholder value. Thus, the bottom line isn't always the goal and often there are other reasons for all of this, so appeals to corporate profitability aren't even going to work here.

[1] https://www.weforum.org/stakeholdercapitalism

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#65

It boils down to a core philosophical difference - do you want to emphasize equal access to opportunity, or do you want to emphasize equal outcomes? Some would argue it isn't an either-or thing, and we can do both at once, but I argue mandated equality of outcomes is insidious and causes social strife. If you are a minority and get hired, and the company has an explicit policy of hiring N% of minorities, then you wil…

Fully agree. I think it’s damaging to a society to assign a spokesperson for certain groups that wasn’t “elected”, but rather given the position, prestige, and reputation due to fitting in that group.

Thus it perpetuates the in-group, and causes the symptoms you’ve mentioned with equality of outcome derived solutions.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#66
> creating townhall meetings and parading your black/brown employees around like show ponies is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling.

That is the point of DEI for companies. Pretty much all HR initiatives are just virtue signaling.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#67
It's crazy how it's become so commonplace.

I hope one day we can really reach the point where skin colour is as unremarkable as eye colour. Where people really are judged not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#68
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever my company has had conversations about DEI initiatives, I always come back to the same argument: "talk is cheap, we can talk all day long about how we are diverse. How about we shut up, put our money where our mouth is, and actually hire some folks from diverse backgrounds". DEI is something that is easy to talk about but actually kinda hard to implement. Part of the problem is the makeup of the industry in…

> actually hire some folks from diverse backgrounds Because you’re trying to hire from a small pool of candidates (minority software developer or whatever) that EVERY OTHER tech company is trying to get in a desperate attempt to not look bad (because not having a sufficient number of minorities on staff is a sin). It’s simply a question of numbers. There’s only so many minorities, and only a fraction of them are suff…

Yeah I look at it from a top level. Say that in the tech industry, 20% (totally made up number BTW) of your workers are black. It would be possible for some companies to have >20% of their workforce be black, but if you look at the top employers (GOOG, AMZN, MSFT, AAPL, etc), there would be physically impossible for them to hire >20% black workers because there are simply not enough of them out there in the broader workforce.

The solution here is to drive more black people into the tech field, in order to raise that 20% figure that would then get reflected among tech companies. This is something that an individual company cannot solve, even at Google or Apple scale, it would have to be at the government level and even that is a complete crapshoot.

TL;DR: Diversity quotas are hard.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#70
post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

[flagged]

No, it was decided to chastise the downtrodden minority class.
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