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Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

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Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#61

Post by Tichy »

"But making statements with inclination is little better than with aptitude - there's still no evidence and it has just the same shoddy history"

Sorry, but that is just bullshit. Everybody who is in IT and has talked to a bunch of women in his life has collected some evidence on this. When would Fowler accept it as evidence? If you have asked 100 women, or one million, or one billion, if they are inclined to go into IT? What do you suppose would be the result if we asked everybody on HN "what percentage of women you know have an inclination to go into IT"? I think there would be thousands of samples with a fairly obvious result.

Why there is little inclination is another question, but the logic Fowler employs here is simply bullshit. It matters because I don't think he'll be able to sway people's opinions if he simply dismisses the evidence they personally collected for themselves. Who are people supposed to trust, if they can't even trust themselves? Also, if he deals with evidence like that, I can not trust his argumentation because it seems as if he only wants to see or accept "evidence" that supports his viewpoint.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#62

Post by dgabriel »

CoderDude1 wrote: post #45

I wonder if Nurses, Social Workers, and Daycare teachers are writing these same articles about how there are not enough men in their fields.

Yes.

In nursing: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/06/health/main521057....

http://www.lpn-to-rn.net/articles/men-nursing.php

In social work: http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/092310p32.shtml

http://www.prlog.org/11694478-men-in-social-work.html

In teaching/day care: http://www.menteach.org/

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_...

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#63

Post by yummyfajitas »

MartinCron wrote: post #32
jkr124 wrote: post #28

Some people bring a cult-like mentality to the discussion of diversity and related issues. Dissent is not welcome, unpleasant facts and observations explained away often in contrived ways. Why is it so hard to imagine that maybe there are meaningful group variations within the human species?

Why is it so hard to imagine that maybe there are meaningful group variations within the human species? The worst things humans have ever done to each other have all centered around the notion of "meaningful group variations within the human species". Without hard science, it's a scary and dangerous place.

I was under the impression that communism was centered around the notion that people are all equal and highly malleable, not that there were intrinsic and immutable differences between human groups.

But assuming you are actually referring to nationalists (who probably rank #2 on the list of "worst things humans have done to each other"), I'll just quote a blog post Bryan Caplan wrote today:

We've learned so much from human genetic research. But when I read Fisher, I understand why the subject terrifies so many people. Hereditarianism combined with inane, half-baked moral philosophy does indeed logically imply Nazi-style homicidal mania. But don't blame the facts of human genetics. Blame the inane, half-baked moral philosophy.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/01/the_demented_pa....

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#64

Post by xbryanx »

My argument for improved diversity (racial, gender, economic, et al.) in the software world is simple and wildly unscientific. It would be lots more fun. Every time I've worked on diverse technology teams it's been more enjoyable and I feel like I've done better work. I know this is a facile argument, but it's definitely the driving reason I work for this change in the software world.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#65

Post by [deleted] »

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54
cturner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late…

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

[deleted]

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#66

Post by dgabriel »

funkah wrote: post #35
nsxwolf wrote: post #10

I don't get this. Maybe it's because I'm a white male, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why is there such a resistance to the idea that there might be differences in what groups of people are interested in at any given time? Not an issue of genetics or competence, but a complicated web of social influences that make people less likely to be interested in one path or the other? If there are truly unjust and disc…

I have similar thoughts. But also, it bothers me that the imbalances in tech are considered to be somehow more pathological or worse than the imbalances that exist in all kinds of other professions. We seem to be the only profession flogging ourselves over this issue (I'm sure there are some others, but I doubt there are many). Are people in nursing worried about the field underperforming as a whole because it has so…

I'm sort of a broken record in this thread, but every time the question comes up I like to respond. Yes, there is a nursing shortage, and actively recruiting and retaining men is a high priority. Please see: http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nurs...

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#67

Post by jessedhillon »

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54
cturner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late…

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented:

For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them --

but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around

-- But for you to fail to achieve representation in the population which can acquire a mate or find a willing sex partner is ALSO a flaw with women!

Brilliant! Heads: you win; tails: women lose.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#68

Post by yummyfajitas »

cturner wrote: post #59
yummyfajitas wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming... I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college). Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this to…

> I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data It's a bit like the flying spaghetti monster book where they correlate the decline of piracy with global warming. You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming. I accept your correction in that we're making the same point about young men. What I should h…

You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming.

Fair enough. I thought the link was obvious enough, but you are keeping me honest. I have no data proving this link myself.

However, I just messaged a friend of mine who occasionally dabbles in math-ed stuff. He recommends these (paywalled) papers as starting points:

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&col...

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480

And an older paper "Identification of Computer Programming Aptitude", by Alspaugh (one of the early works).

I'll asked him to give me copies next time I see him in person (I'm no longer an academic, so I can't access university libraries).

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#69

Post by warmfuzzykitten »

phuff wrote: post #31
datashaman wrote: post #17

Reprocussions is a word?

No. It's repercussions.

Having been dinged by PG for rewriting the title of a posted link - common practice on HN - it particularly annoys me when it's done by people who can't spell.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#70

Post by keithflower »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #23
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #3

I hate to pick apart Fowler -- probably a good way for folks to call me an idiot -- but I have to. here are (roughly) 50% women in the world, so we should expect the ratio for women in computing to be 50% - unless there's real evidence that some other ratio is natural.[2] So far there's no such evidence. But, er, doesn't the observation that the actual ratio is different evidence constitute "evidence"? Aside from dir…

Not only does he make the logical fallacies you suggest, but he also ignores plenty of evidence that there might be natural causes: For instance, there is plenty of evidence women are less likely to be very good (or very bad) at math: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/321/5888/494.summary http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21038941 There is also evidence women are more risk averse, making them less likely to work in…

The January 2012 issue of the Notices of the American Mathematical Society presents a comprehensive review article disagreeing that there is "plenty of evidence" women are less likely to be very good at math based on "natural causes" (whatever the hell that kind of nonsense phrase is supposed to mean), and provides plenty of evidence that any disparity is due to attitudes toward women and other sociocultural factors:

"Debunking Myths about Gender and Mathematics Performance" http://www.ams.org/notices/201201/rtx120100010p.pdf

Now for the anecdotes: in my experience there has been plenty of outright racial and gender discrimination in computing, science, math, and even medicine. I've seen it. I suspect most if not all of you have seen it. It persists into the 21st century.

That needs to continue to change.

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