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Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

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Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#61

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #41
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> moving parts and fluids That's where most of the problems come from. A lot of mechanics are probably not ready to deal with the issues EVs face, though.

Most of the problems in any moving vehicle come from stuff close to the ground, tires, suspension, steering. This is true for everything from battery powered forklifts to semi trucks. Leaks start showing up in old age and the involved parts don't typically wear out unless you ignore leaks and habitually run some subsystem low on its requisite fluid or run it dry. There are some exceptions for piss poor engineering bu…

Good point.

I will say that a rental fleet is a great "brutality test" for EVs, though. Rental cars age quickly.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#62

Post by lm28469 »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #23
Majestic121 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While those numbers are extremely encouraging, the fact that this is on a new fleet is to be kept in mind. What we know now is that they 50-60% cheaper to maintain during the first couple of years. Let's hope that they are also 50-60% cheaper to maintain over their whole lifetime, but this might not be as assured as one might think due to batteries which are a huge cost.

The best part about exponential curves: By the time the battery needs to be replaced batteries will be 90% cheaper.

You can be sure the invisible hand of the free market will take care of that, and also of the "it's 4x cheaper to charge an EV than fill an ICE vehicle tank"

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#63

Post by yazaddaruvala »

endisneigh wrote: post #42
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best part about exponential curves: By the time the battery needs to be replaced batteries will be 90% cheaper.

there's no way that will be true, lol

This is the trend, backed by all the data and the expectation of the industry. Why do you think otherwise?

https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/management/e...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects

If you’re familiar with Moores Law, that is an example of an experience curve.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#64

Post by metadat »

toast0 wrote: post #20
metadat wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange claim, because Hertz's fleets are comprised of new and almost brand new vehicles, which usually only require oil changes. Then they sell them off after accumulating 10,000-25,000 miles, before any real maintenance is required. 20,000 miles is what, 4-6 oil changes?

> 20,000 miles is what, 4-6 oil changes? Most new cars have a 10,000 mile factory oil change interval. PHEVs usually go for 20,000. Rental cars sometimes have a hard service life, but I'd put that range at maybe 1-2 changes. Which isn't much at all. More likely there's a usage difference; if you're puttering around from the airport to the hotel and back, you might pick an EV, but if you're renting a car to drive a lo…

Thanks for the info, toast0.

Minor clarification: Highway miles are actually gentler than city / town miles. Less wear and tear due to stop and go traffic, 90 degree turns, and fewer potholes.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#65

Post by CydeWeys »

gruez wrote: post #45
CydeWeys wrote: post #21

Rental cars are prime candidates for EVs as they get driven a lot more than the average car. I don't own a car, but whenever I rent one I'm putting a lot more miles on it per day than any car I ever owned in the past. I only rent cars when I know I'll be doing a lot of driving, so it makes sense (otherwise I'd just take a few taxis/Ubers).

The most typical rental car use case I can think of is you traveling to a random city and needing transportation, either for a business trip or on vacation. In either case, I'm driving in an unfamiliar city, to a bunch of random places. The last thing I want in that scenario is having to worry about where I can charge my car. Finding parking is already enough hassle enough.

I'm not worried about it. There's apps and websites that show you all the charging locations. You have to figure out much more complicated stuff than that while traveling.

I'd love to get an EV rental but I'm not willing to pay extra for it and luck hasn't smiled my way yet. I also don't use Hertz, mostly Avis, and I'm guessing they don't have nearly as many EVs.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#66

Post by CydeWeys »

RHSeeger wrote: post #52
CydeWeys wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's widely known that maintenance costs way less on EVs than on gas-powered cars. There are plenty of data points everywhere to confirm this. EVs are much simpler with way fewer moving parts and fluids to worry about.

I'd be interested in seeing how this applies to consumers/owners. From what I've seen, the items that tend to cost more in maintenance for EVs are things like the battery; ones that last a long-ish time but are extremely expensive to fix/replace when they go. Given that rental companies (and people that lease) likely won't have the cars long enough to reach that point, the overall maintenance cost is lower for them.…

Most EVs won't ever have their batteries replaced; it simply won't be necessary. This is a perennial concern about EVs that simply isn't a big deal in practice, and EVs have been around long enough to have data points here.

Most people don't own and use cars for nearly long enough to fully wear out a battery pack on an EV that they've bought new.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#67

Post by asciimov »

cs702 wrote: post #2

According to the OP, Hertz has found that EVs are "between 50-60% cheaper to maintain than gasoline-powered cars." That's a huge difference. It means that the cost of using an ICE vehicle over time is 2x greater. If the figure is anywhere near accurate, ICE vehicles are toast.

Those are short term ownership costs. Major Rental Companies often pull cars between 35k-50k miles, which they can pile on the car in 12 months. For most modern cars that is a couple of oil changes, but before the long term maintenance items crop up like tires, which on EVs are more expensive.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#68

Post by yazaddaruvala »

lm28469 wrote: post #62
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best part about exponential curves: By the time the battery needs to be replaced batteries will be 90% cheaper.

You can be sure the invisible hand of the free market will take care of that, and also of the "it's 4x cheaper to charge an EV than fill an ICE vehicle tank"

The technology is just too distributed already for any of that to happen.

Cost of charging an EV is bounded by the ability to add solar panels to your house (currently solar installations “pay for themselves” in 7 years in Seattle - not so sunny - high cost of labor location). The grid and “free market” have to be able to compete with that for cost.

Batteries like solar panels are very cheap to transport. They are flat, they can easily stack, there is no expiration period, and no temperature regulation needed to transport them. Batteries will be produced globally if the local markets start gouging.

Solar panels are already a great example of this cost reduction curve. So I’d say your outlook is very pessimistic and not backed by the data.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#69

Post by hef19898 »

alexfromapex wrote: post #49
jakewins wrote: post #28

I’m 100% in the EV train, but this article is weird. It says they ordered a ton of EVs, and that EVs have lower cost of maintenance, awesome - but it provides no evidence that EV maintenance costs actually contributed to the improvements here? The statements they have from Hertz say “we made $$$$ from demand coming back to rent cars” and “we spent that $$$$ on buying EVs”. The quotes and facts in the article are not…

I think a large majority of these EV analyses suffer from short-term biases as well. It will be interesting to see if the cost of maintenance remains super low when these vehicles need battery replacements.

Those are rentals, so they run quite a few more charging cycles than private owned cars. On the other hand, rental companies write there cars off, and sell them early enough to maintain an up tondate fleet. So maybe batteries don't need replacement during the rental live, and companies don't care that much about resell value since the car is written off the books anyway.

Re: Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded

#70

Post by endisneigh »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #63
endisneigh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's no way that will be true, lol

This is the trend, backed by all the data and the expectation of the industry. Why do you think otherwise? https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/management/e... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects If you’re familiar with Moores Law, that is an example of an experience curve.

I’m familiar with the trend, but it’s unlikely the price of electric batteries would decrease an additional 90% in 20 years
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