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Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

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Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#61

Post by InclinedPlane »

snowwrestler wrote: post #51
InclinedPlane wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A closer analogy is shutting down a printing press. America survived for 100 years before offset printing existed, so why not craft a law that excludes newspapers that use offset printing presses from first amendment protections?

The hyperbole around this law is getting irritating. Congress can't restrict First Amendment rights online any more easily than they can in print; laws cannot override the Constitution.

The constitution is just a piece of paper. It only has force so long as people allow it to. And local and federal laws can violate the constitution up until they are overturned by the courts (potentially a lengthy process).

It took nearly a century for the 14th Amendment to achieve the full force of law everywhere in the US.

We should not be the least bit blase about allowing unconstitutional laws to be passed, as though they would be null and void upon passing.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#62

Post by snowwrestler »

JeremyBanks wrote: post #57
snowwrestler wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hyperbole around this law is getting irritating. Congress can't restrict First Amendment rights online any more easily than they can in print; laws cannot override the Constitution.

The constitution and other agreements on human/civil rights are frequently violated by the American government. Why do you expect this case to be any different? (My favourite example is that America hasn't had a constitutionally-authorized war since World War II. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_Unit... )

Look, either you believe the Constitution limits the powers of the government, or you believe it doesn't.

If it does, then SOPA would be subject to those limitations as much as any printing press law would (the example to which I was responding).

If it doesn't, then why does SOPA matter at all? The government could just shut down websites left and right tomorrow regardless of what the law says.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#63

Post by nirvdrum »

snowwrestler wrote: post #62
JeremyBanks wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution and other agreements on human/civil rights are frequently violated by the American government. Why do you expect this case to be any different? (My favourite example is that America hasn't had a constitutionally-authorized war since World War II. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_Unit... )

Look, either you believe the Constitution limits the powers of the government, or you believe it doesn't. If it does, then SOPA would be subject to those limitations as much as any printing press law would (the example to which I was responding). If it doesn't, then why does SOPA matter at all? The government could just shut down websites left and right tomorrow regardless of what the law says.

The problem is the gray area in between. Once passed, the law is the lay of the land. Its constitutionality can only be challenged once you've been charged with it. In the meanwhile, your livelihood is offline.

It's not uncommon for a law to be passed that is unconstitutional.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#64

Post by waqf »

snowwrestler wrote: post #62
JeremyBanks wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution and other agreements on human/civil rights are frequently violated by the American government. Why do you expect this case to be any different? (My favourite example is that America hasn't had a constitutionally-authorized war since World War II. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_Unit... )

Look, either you believe the Constitution limits the powers of the government, or you believe it doesn't. If it does, then SOPA would be subject to those limitations as much as any printing press law would (the example to which I was responding). If it doesn't, then why does SOPA matter at all? The government could just shut down websites left and right tomorrow regardless of what the law says.

Just because the government sometimes gets away with unconstitutional things, it doesn't follow that there is no check whatsoever on the government's power.

For example, the government might get away with indefinitely detaining a few people without trial; but they might still forbear to arbitrarily detain more than a few percent of the populace for fear of popular revolt.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#65

Post by tux1968 »

Stage two of this whole SOPA initiative is telegraphed quietly within the Al Gore speech:

"As in all things, some compromise must be possible."

I've believed for quite some time that SOPA itself was never really seriously thought to be passable by anyone. Rather just an extreme first salvo to make the next set of oppressive measures seem like a reasonable compromise in comparison.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#66

Post by darasen »

Trevor Strong of the Arrogant Worms thanked me for downloading their music. Of course downloading the music made me a big enough fan of theirs to drive 300 miles to see them in concert as well as buying several CDs there. I also introduced many people to their music.

Point being I think many artist are open(ish) about sharing music (for example). It does seem things like SOPA come from far larger groups like the RIAA.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#67

Post by Natsu »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #33
weaksauce wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? with SOPA you are enabling the copyright holders to go after apple's entire distribution center because someone cloned tetris and the owners of tetris came after apple with an infringment claim. This takes down all of distribution not just the clone. Since the distribution is over the internet and name resolution is based on dns this is actually possible. unless apple changes it to be static IP addresses it woul…

The thing with this is I just can't imagine the App store getting shut down because of this, or even youtube. There would be a serious uproar if that happened, people wouldn't stand for it. More likely is that some pirate sites will die and others will just go deeper underground. The people who are likely to be scared into shutting up shop all together will be smaller distributors of independent or amateur content. I…

> The thing with this is I just can't imagine the App store getting shut down because of this, or even youtube.

Viacom was essentially trying to drive YouTube into bankruptcy with its lawsuit against them. Granted, they lost.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#68

Post by westicle »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #33
weaksauce wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? with SOPA you are enabling the copyright holders to go after apple's entire distribution center because someone cloned tetris and the owners of tetris came after apple with an infringment claim. This takes down all of distribution not just the clone. Since the distribution is over the internet and name resolution is based on dns this is actually possible. unless apple changes it to be static IP addresses it woul…

The thing with this is I just can't imagine the App store getting shut down because of this, or even youtube. There would be a serious uproar if that happened, people wouldn't stand for it. More likely is that some pirate sites will die and others will just go deeper underground. The people who are likely to be scared into shutting up shop all together will be smaller distributors of independent or amateur content. I…

That's why in a country which operates under the rule of law SOPA should never pass. If the plain reading of a law results in outcomes which you can't imagine, then the law is an ass.

The attitude of "yes this law applies to the app store but it will never BE applied to the app store" is basically an exercise in double-think, and in my view is morally suspect.

What is the criteria then for who the law SHOULD be applied to? People the RIAA don't like? People legitimately disrupting established industries? People competing commercially with the friends of senators? The whole point of the rule of law is to prevent arbitrary exercise of discretion. The law either applies equally to everyone or applies to no-one.

Re: Al Gore Comes Out Against SOPA/PIPA

#69

Post by cal5k »

tux1968 wrote: post #65

Stage two of this whole SOPA initiative is telegraphed quietly within the Al Gore speech: "As in all things, some compromise must be possible." I've believed for quite some time that SOPA itself was never really seriously thought to be passable by anyone. Rather just an extreme first salvo to make the next set of oppressive measures seem like a reasonable compromise in comparison.

Ah, herein lies the genius of experienced lobbyists. It's straight from the regulatory capture playbook - in Canada, for example, telecoms know they need to approach the CRTC (which regulates telecommunications) with an extreme list of demands so that they can negotiate down to their desired items while making it seem like a compromise has been reached.

I think the only right way to do it is in reverse... start with a list of idealized demands from a citizen/consumer point of view, then let industry push back on the really egregious items until an actual compromise has been reached.

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