Live data from Hacker News

The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

vanityfair.com

61–70 of 122 posts

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#62

The questions involving "90% chance of $1000 or 100% chance of $900" always bother me. I never understand why economists think that a rational actor would consider them equivalent; they're not , unless you are making that choice many many times. But if I'm given that chance once (which is presumably what most participants assume, since that's not a choice that comes up often in one's life), it's really then a choice…

A thousand dollars is not a life-changing sum. It's well within the range in which the utility of money is linear in the amount. (Even if it's large compared to what you have in your pocket, by the time you spend it, your life will be the same as it is now.) If we were talking about a million dollars, your answer would be right.

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing is not that people are risk averse (and thus choose 100% chance of $900), the interesting thing is that people become risk seeking when it comes to losses (and thus choose 90% chance of -$1000). You're creating a bit of a straw man when it comes to behavioral economists and their view of "rational actors" - the whole field is built around the understanding that there is more to economic decision…

That's because Kahneman gets the signs wrong in the OP. Question 5a is: $900 @ 100%, or $1000 @ 90% Most people choose $900 @ 100% Question 5b is: -$1000 + $100 @ 100%, or -$1000 + $1000 @ 10% Most people choose -$1000 + $1000 @ 10% Written this way, the false symmetry vanishes, and we see that in both cases, people are risk averse when the payoff is low, and risk-seeking when the payoff is high. Which is to say, peo…

But that's not what the research was about, if I'm understanding it correctly (the research has been mentioned a lot in popular economics literature, so I think that I am understanding it correctly, at least at the high level). The conclusion of the research is that people are more risk-averse when it comes to losses - i.e. they'd rather not win 100$ than loose 100$.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying it's about the amounts; and I think I'd have to agree with you that for the examples to be equivalent, the amounts in 5b should be multiplied by 10. But then again, maybe that would introduce another comprehension hurdle or cognitive correction effect which would render the experiment invalid. Interesting question to ask the original researchers, although I presume that by now (after decades) they've addressed it somewhere already :)

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#64
post #29

The questions involving "90% chance of $1000 or 100% chance of $900" always bother me. I never understand why economists think that a rational actor would consider them equivalent; they're not , unless you are making that choice many many times. But if I'm given that chance once (which is presumably what most participants assume, since that's not a choice that comes up often in one's life), it's really then a choice…

I don't understand. Kahneman's whole thing is showing that it's wrong to assume that humans are rational actors. Your second paragraph is exactly the point - the choices are not equivalent to humans.

Humans are rational, just not in the 'mathematically rational' sense. I.e., not just using statistics and probabilities to make decisions. As long as decision-making involves a process (even if it's unconscious) of trade-offs to optimize total utility, it's still rational (well one can debate if should be called 'rational' or have some qualifier attached to it, but then it becomes a definition question, a rather boring one).

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#65
post #9

I didn't much like this: " being swayed by the way in which questions are worded rather than responding just to their substance " (for the lost ticket being allegedly equivalent to $10). Is a ticket, which costs $10, emotionally equivalent to $10? Once bought, the ticket is unique in my eyes, whereas I'm not even sure how many $10 bills I have in my wallet even now. So if I lose one, well, maybe it wasn't there in th…

I actually find it very useful to emotionally detach from a commodity - that is treat all tickets to the movie theater as the same. I generally find it bad to fall into the sunk-cost effect and I am much happier when I avoid it.

A pet peeve of mine in this regard is about throwing away food that is left on a plate. Many people feel a moral duty (often instilled in them from a young age) to eat everything that is on a plate, even if eating that last 10% would make them feel uncomfortable for an hour and would have no utility from a dietary point of view (actually have negative utility, since it only increases their fat intake).

Yet I have a hard time convincing people of this, and some people sometimes feel the need to scold me for throwing away food. Despite that, I've been better off since I internalized the true nature of this (daily recurring) situation.

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#66
Sorry to say it, but this certainly smells like cargo-cult science. First, I'm not a scientist, and not even a Nobel-prize winner, but for example I cannot understand what question 3) has to do with "science". I did have 2 dates in the past month, but I'm at one of the lowest points of my life, because, guess what? the missing context really matters (I'm about to get divorced).

The same goes for question 4) . I chose A, "Yes", assuming it was a good movie worth seeing, but lacking the above-mentioned "context" (is it "Forrest Gump" or "Delta Force IV"?) any answer you give it's just to satisfy the interviewer. And yes, people DO go and see movies that they know they're bad.

A little less reading on "behavioral economics" or "animal spirits" and a little more reading of Hume will do everyone a ton of good.

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#67
post #66

Sorry to say it, but this certainly smells like cargo-cult science. First, I'm not a scientist, and not even a Nobel-prize winner, but for example I cannot understand what question 3) has to do with "science". I did have 2 dates in the past month, but I'm at one of the lowest points of my life, because, guess what? the missing context really matters (I'm about to get divorced). The same goes for question 4) . I chose…

The questions aren't science - that statistics that predict that most people will get them wrong are.

Or rather - the theories which predict how people will (statistically) make sub-optimal decisions in certain circumstances are science: they make predictions that can be tested.

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#68
post #66

Sorry to say it, but this certainly smells like cargo-cult science. First, I'm not a scientist, and not even a Nobel-prize winner, but for example I cannot understand what question 3) has to do with "science". I did have 2 dates in the past month, but I'm at one of the lowest points of my life, because, guess what? the missing context really matters (I'm about to get divorced). The same goes for question 4) . I chose…

If you want the actual science instead of the quiz consider the book Judgment under Uncertainty: Heuristics and Biases. It's better than Hume. For something you can read right now that might get you to care: http://singinst.org/upload/cognitive-biases.pdf

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#69
post #6

The engineer/lawyer problem explanation (spoilers) is only correct in a world where lawyers and engineers have all the same characteristics. That the sampled individual is a man will skew things all by itself. Of the lawyers, approximately 40% will be women, whereas only 11% of the engineers. So our samplee could be one of 27 engineers or 42 lawyers - we've already bumped Peng from .3 to .39! That he likes math puzzl…

30 engineers, 70 lawyers, the probability of being an engineer is 30%. What Jack likes to do is irrelevant. Why can't a lawyer like math and dislike politics (winning a case framed by certain rules is just a puzzle/game to hack)?

Re: The quiz Daniel Kahneman wants you to fail

#70
post #67
post #66

Sorry to say it, but this certainly smells like cargo-cult science. First, I'm not a scientist, and not even a Nobel-prize winner, but for example I cannot understand what question 3) has to do with "science". I did have 2 dates in the past month, but I'm at one of the lowest points of my life, because, guess what? the missing context really matters (I'm about to get divorced). The same goes for question 4) . I chose…

The questions aren't science - that statistics that predict that most people will get them wrong are. Or rather - the theories which predict how people will (statistically) make sub-optimal decisions in certain circumstances are science: they make predictions that can be tested.

I believe paganel is referring exactly to the "sub-optimal decision" part, in the explanation (not the questions themselves).

And yes, this quiz seems a load of underspecified cargo-cult horsecrap. I surely hope the original research was of higher quality.

Post reply on HN