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Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

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Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#61

Post by tmpburning »

fsh wrote: post #39

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it. However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Bein…

> I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries,

Mazda also have an all-electric car, the Mx-30. (Starting MSRP $33,470)

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#62

Post by replygirl »

kuschku wrote: post #50
theshrike79 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a dream that synthetic fuels or hydrogen will suddenly get their own Elon Musk who will drive down the wholesale price to a viable level. But in the end (25 years+) I think synthetics will be used for hobbyists to run their vintage vehicles on track days and weekends.

That's actually an interesting use case, vintage vehicles, old diesel trucks used near radio telescopes, etc. That said, I doubt that market would be large enough for the amount of money currently being invested in it.

motorsport is a quarter trillion dollar industry, about 50x the size of the synthetics market, and there are already a ton of teams engaged in research partnerships with fuel companies

just at the highest level: formula e is floundering; f1's 2026 regulations will introduce a 100% sustainable fuel while making the electric part of the powertrain _less_ sophisticated (removing the MGU-h, so no more energy recapture from turbo spindown)

all three of these seem perfectly realistic:

- synthetics take off widely

- synthetics don't take off, but get far enough along that they are competitive with existing popular race fuels (which go for $10-15/gal)

- synthetics don't take off, but they get far enough along that speciality fuel producers can stand up their own supply chains with marginal r&d spend, but can't compete with other race fuels... for the first 5-10 years, then the race fuels are made illegal

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#63

Post by chiefalchemist »

theshrike79 wrote: post #13
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Current synthetic fuels cost around 10€/litre, which comes to around $37/gallon. Not really viable for day to day use yet.

That depends.

What is the cost of the environmental damage from traditionals?

What is the real cost of the military used to guarantee the delivery of traditionals?

That is the opportunity cost of that same military expense?

Oil refineries, they have a cost.

What happens to the cost of synthetics as production volume increases?

Etc.

We need to consider the full cost landscape, not simply gallon v gallon.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#64

Post by leovailati »

denton-scratch wrote: post #8

> Simply put, the synthetic fuel operated much like normal gasoline would have, without the emission drawbacks of the latter. Hmmm. The fuel is hydrocarbons; so the emissions are at minimum CO2 and particulates.

Apparently they produced it with agricultural by-products. So no net CO2 (other than the energy it takes for the transformation)

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#65

Post by pornel »

tmpburning wrote: post #61
fsh wrote: post #39

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it. However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Bein…

> I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, Mazda also have an all-electric car, the Mx-30. (Starting MSRP $33,470)

It's the worst EV on the market. It's only a compliance car, not something they expect anyone to drive.

Toyota/Subaru aren't much better. Japanese carmakers seem to hope that BEVs are only a fad.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#66

Post by brk »

mfer wrote: post #51
i_am_proteus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

All the crypto mining dying off should free up a lot of grid resources for EVs.

I've heard the "grid can't handle all EVs" statement, but have not seen anything backing up the claim.

I believe the grid can in fact handle EVs becoming prevalent. We might need more power generation, which could be new plants, and/or residential solar.

Baring some kind of crazy legislation requiring ICE vehicles to be crushed or permanently parked, we are decades away from a scenario where pure EVs are the dominant vehicle type on the road. There are just too many serviceable ICE vehicles in play to expect them to really go away in the next quarter century or so. That allows plenty of time for anything the current power generation and distribution infrastructure lacks to be adequately addressed.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#67

Post by someweirdperson »

mrtksn wrote: post #35
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Well, it's kind of obvious that the supplies of oil aren't infinite, isn't it? Is there even a theory that the oil is infinite? The peak oil is about timing and and cost, maybe it didn't happen according to the predictions but it will definitely happen. Besides the environmental concerns it also seems wasteful to burn away the stuff that is used for so many more things. The synthetic stuff is interesting because it m…

There's probably as much combustible matetial as there's oxygen to burn it. If we burn too much, it will be difficult to breathe.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#68

Post by elif »

It is disgusting for the author to call the synthetic fuel "emission free"

It's still a long hydrocarbon chain that breaks down into CO2 during combustion.

This entire line of reasoning is avoided in the article, so I can only imagine it was sponsored by BP or SA.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#69

Post by xnzakg »

PaulHoule wrote: post #40
theshrike79 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current synthetic fuels cost around 10€/litre, which comes to around $37/gallon. Not really viable for day to day use yet.

Qatar claims their Methanol-to-Gasoline based factory is profitable at a world price of $40 a barrel based on natural gas as a feed stock. What people are hoping for today is to get CO₂ from the atmosphere and hydrogen from H₂O with electricity from solar, wind or nuclear. (Though w/ nuclear you might use thermochemical hydrogen if you can get the temperature up) The best use case for that I've seen is that the US Na…

Not to mention leaded fuel still being a thing in aviation

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#70

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ksec wrote: post #56
teekert wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the Netherlands and we're almost there! ;) No not really but, when it peaked I saw 2.40 eur/litre (9.71$/gallon, now down to 1.80 eur/litre) in places... Of course, much of that is taxes, but hey, this stuff would receive a lot of subsidies. Fwiw, I once (4 years ago or so?) spoke to someone from an ICE conference (a parallel conference to my breast cancer conference) who explained that ICE's can be made 10…

Imagine if the fuel could be sold as carbon negative . i.e They will (somehow) plant more trees or take the same amount of CO2 from air for every CO2 fuel you burn on top of the CO2 they collect back to make the synthetic fuel.

If some % of the fuel burned turns into some chemically stable carbon waste and 100% of the carbon in the fuel came from stuff that was grown recently then it would be carbon negative.
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