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Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

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Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#61

Post by masklinn »

analog31 wrote: post #25

Granted a passenger car is not a heavy truck or bus, but living in the upper Midwest, I've learned that snow tires make a huge difference for winter driving. I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice, and having used them for a few years now, I'm a believer. So called "all season" tires are not snow tires. You can get a complete set of snow tires,…

> I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice, and having used them for a few years now, I'm a believer.

That seems obvious. AWD means you can use the traction of all tyres to move. But without snow tyres you have no traction, so AWD does nothing.

> So called "all season" tires are not snow tires.

Not quite true, there are 3PMSF all-season tyres, and unrated ASTs might behave well on snow, it depends on the compromises the manufacturer decided on, as the point of an ASF is to balance dry, wet, and snow. But where the manufacturer decides to put the balance is very relevant. That a tyre is all-season doesn't mean it's all-of-your-location-seasons.

In fact, you can have ASTs which are excellent in the snow and absolute shit on dry and wet, that's what "tyre reviews" found with the Tomket Allyear 3 (https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre/Tomket/Allyear-3.htm) for instance.

Also technically unrated "winter tyres" may not be suitable for snow either, they might be using better winterised compounds and deeper thread patterns but not sufficiently so to behave well on snow.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#62

Post by supermatt »

alkonaut wrote: post #59
supermatt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

I think "AWD" today is used to mean "anything that isn't 2WD". So whether it's a full time 4x4 or something that is mostly-fwd-but-rwd-when-slipping or something else isn't part of the nomenclature. It simply means "something more than 2WD at least some of the time". There has been an endless debate as to whether 4WD or AWD are the same or different, whether only "symmetric" or "full time" counts as one or the other.…

Not really - AWD is effectively non-braking traction control by varying the power distribution to each axle (and on some modern electric drivetrains, each wheel). 4wd provides constant power to both axles.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#64

Post by Tor3 »

supermatt wrote: post #58
Tor3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action. Quite the opposite really - many people have experienced how with 4x4 you don't get a warning before you just lose your grip and off the road you go. For the record I'm driving a 4x4,…

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

It doesn't mean any difference when you're trying to slow down downhill. As you're saying, "your tyres are going to make ALL the difference." Which is exactly what I said - 4x4 or AWD doesn't help anything with that.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#65

Post by Moru »

analog31 wrote: post #43
qbasic_forever wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used all kinds of traction tires in real world conditions over the years and say otherwise. Yes, brand new snow tires are far better than all seasons on ice. But after a few months the soft rubber on them will deteriorate and they're just the same as all season, but now with the added 'benefit' that you have no idea this has happened until you try to brake on ice and it doesnt grip as well anymore. I honestly th…

I appreciate your comment. While I think my snow tires have helped on ice, I'm hesitant to make a broad claim about them without quantitative evidence to back me up. And I certainly take all precautions if there might be ice, ranging from slowing down a lot, to staying home. Now, I love my carbide studded bicycle tires. Those definitely do work on ice. But once again, staying upright on ice involves a combination of…

The size of the bicycle tires are also important, and the air pressure. I changed to a fatbike without metal studs this year and now I can bike with very low pressure. Normally around 0.5 bar when bumpy and slippery, it works like a charm as long as it's not smooth ice covered with snow. The tires shape themselves around all the cracks and bumps and gives tracktion almost everywhere. The old bike with thinner wheels didn't have as good comfort in winter even with new studded tires because I could not ride it at that low pressure without getting damages to the rubber.

I live in an area of Sweden that has ice and snow at least 4 months per year. Still thinking of buying studded tires for the fatbike but want to see how I'm doing with these, the rubber is nice and soft even at -20 degrees so I think I might be good enough with this solution.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#66

Post by alkonaut »

supermatt wrote: post #62
alkonaut wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "AWD" today is used to mean "anything that isn't 2WD". So whether it's a full time 4x4 or something that is mostly-fwd-but-rwd-when-slipping or something else isn't part of the nomenclature. It simply means "something more than 2WD at least some of the time". There has been an endless debate as to whether 4WD or AWD are the same or different, whether only "symmetric" or "full time" counts as one or the other.…

Not really - AWD is effectively non-braking traction control by varying the power distribution to each axle (and on some modern electric drivetrains, each wheel). 4wd provides constant power to both axles.

I think of it more as an outdated distinction. First of all with motors on each wheel and no communication between front/rear in many cases, the distinction becomes blurry.

Further many manufacturers have names like “AWD” (volvo and others) or “4matic” (MB) or “4motion” (VW) to label their take on more-than-2wd, whether or not their variant is awd or 4WD (or both) in the traditional sense. Some "AWD" models will be electric with 1 motor per axle, or 3 motors (1 front 2 rear) etc. Some others are ICE with traditional drive shaft to the rear wheel axle, which in some cases will drive 50/50 and in some cases variable. Others still are hybrids wth no prop shaft but instead a rear electric motor etc.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#67

Post by adql »

analog31 wrote: post #25

Granted a passenger car is not a heavy truck or bus, but living in the upper Midwest, I've learned that snow tires make a huge difference for winter driving. I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice, and having used them for a few years now, I'm a believer. So called "all season" tires are not snow tires. You can get a complete set of snow tires,…

Every car is no wheel drive when there is enough slip

> So called "all season" tires are not snow tires.

Fun fact: US "all season" tyres are sold in EU as summer tyres.

You want to look into "all weather" tyres. The good one are rough equivalent to cheap winter tyre and decent summer tyre. It's still not worth it IMO if you're driving a lot but after COVID I drive little enough that I wouldn't get thru 2 sets of tyres before they rot away.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#68

Post by meetingthrower »

supermatt wrote: post #62
alkonaut wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "AWD" today is used to mean "anything that isn't 2WD". So whether it's a full time 4x4 or something that is mostly-fwd-but-rwd-when-slipping or something else isn't part of the nomenclature. It simply means "something more than 2WD at least some of the time". There has been an endless debate as to whether 4WD or AWD are the same or different, whether only "symmetric" or "full time" counts as one or the other.…

Not really - AWD is effectively non-braking traction control by varying the power distribution to each axle (and on some modern electric drivetrains, each wheel). 4wd provides constant power to both axles.

Agree. We have a Tacoma that has 4WD and it is the absolute dumbest implementation. Contrast that to the Subaru with AWD and it is a completely different driving experience. We go with studs on the Tacoma for that reason, and get by with regular snows on the Subie.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#69

Post by adql »

supermatt wrote: post #58
Tor3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action. Quite the opposite really - many people have experienced how with 4x4 you don't get a warning before you just lose your grip and off the road you go. For the record I'm driving a 4x4,…

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

> AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres.

Too late buddy. The way manufacturers abused AWD, 4WD and 4x4 terms they can mean anything now

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#70

Post by Someone »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #9

Do they make them for motorcyles?

If you had them, and were about to fall over, would there be room to put a boot on the floor between those flails? Would you dare try it?

On the other hand, chances are it would make cars stay a safe distance away.

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