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Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

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Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#61

Post by nickthegreek »

lynndotpy wrote: post #21
AlokNandan wrote: post #9

EDIT: This is a known issue w/ all pulse oximeters. See Prof Kadambi @UCLA work on this --> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fixing-medical-de... FDA is aware of this issue. Increasing diversity in clinical trials is a hard problem. https://www.linkedin.com/events/increasingdiversityinclinica...

And nothing in Apple's advertising or product info suggested this. I also don't think I saw anything describing this in the ToS or EULA. The least they could do is be upfront about this.

Why would they need to? It functions the same way all oximeters do, which have been around for decades.

My friend is heavily tattooed and their apple watch doesn't even know its on their wrist and they lost alot of functionality because of that. They would love for it to work but understand the limitations of the technology currently.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#62

Post by mcphage »

Teever wrote: post #29
lynndotpy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nothing in Apple's advertising or product info suggested this. I also don't think I saw anything describing this in the ToS or EULA. The least they could do is be upfront about this.

Do you feel they should have a disclaimer about it being harder to take picture of dark skinned people in many settings with their cameras as well? Did you actually read the ToS or EULA?

> Do you feel they should have a disclaimer about it being harder to take picture of dark skinned people in many settings with their cameras as well?

Yeah, I kinda do.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#63

Post by mcphage »

nightpool wrote: post #24

Companies get sued by random people for stuff like this all the time, I don't think there's anything here that indicates this is particularly newsworthy or exceptional. This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tar... . Apparently (according to that NPR article) he files ~…

> This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts

I'm definitely against frivolous lawsuits, but that doesn't seem like a good example of one to me. "Product isn't what it claims" seems like a totally valid lawsuit.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#64

Post by itsyaboi »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #57
itsyaboi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "health device" to medical device as homeopathy is to actual medicine?

No?

What is a "health device"? I'm assuming you used the term intentionally and did not mean "medical device" which carries certain legal implications.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#65

Post by giantrobot »

seanw444 wrote: post #33
nightpool wrote: post #24

Companies get sued by random people for stuff like this all the time, I don't think there's anything here that indicates this is particularly newsworthy or exceptional. This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tar... . Apparently (according to that NPR article) he files ~…

I can't imagine spending my whole life filing bullshit lawsuits.

It must be the VC model for lawyers, it takes one mega-successful lawsuit out of a hundred to come out ahead.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#66

Post by gnicholas »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #40

Doesn't the person filing the suit, by the wording of the suit, admit to expecting inaccuracy based on skin color before buying the device? Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight.

> Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight.

They wouldn't have standing to sue Garmin and Fitbit unless they had purchased products from those companies as well.

But even if they had, it's not required to sue all possible defendants simultaneously. Sometimes plaintiffs start with the small defendants, who are more likely to settle because of lack of funds, and sometimes they start with the big ones, who are worth more and may care about the court of public opinion.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#67

Post by kelseyfrog »

nonethewiser wrote: post #16
shagie wrote: post #4

The complaint is also available at https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590 - the pdf is https://ia601507.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... The initial part of the complaint: 1. Apple, Inc. (“Defendant”) manufactures, markets, and sells the Apple Watch, purporting to measure the oxygen level of a wearer’s blood directly from their wrist (“Product”). 2. The interest in blood oxygen levels exte…

Racism requires intent. Even if they KNEW of the discrepancy, they have to optimize towards something. Did Apple do this because they dont like black people? Going to be hard to prove that but it wouldn't be surprising if the plaintiffs gets a payout none-the-less.

That's not based in reality and in fact a very common misconception. The truth is the opposite.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#68

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_... describes in pretty solid detail that Apple specifically explored skin color and claims they found no effect on performance. If that's actually true then they'll have no trouble showing that the case is invalid. If that's not true then the case seems ok. Either way, I don't see a lot of harm in forcing Apple to show the court.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#69

Post by lynndotpy »

nickthegreek wrote: post #61
lynndotpy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nothing in Apple's advertising or product info suggested this. I also don't think I saw anything describing this in the ToS or EULA. The least they could do is be upfront about this.

Why would they need to? It functions the same way all oximeters do, which have been around for decades. My friend is heavily tattooed and their apple watch doesn't even know its on their wrist and they lost alot of functionality because of that. They would love for it to work but understand the limitations of the technology currently.

Apple already lists many limitations of their technology, and not everyone has the benefit of the knowledge of the limitations of each component of the devices. Many customers of the Watch have not even been around for decades plural.

We pay Apple to understand the internals they put in their watch, so they should be the ones to describe the limitations of their technology.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#70

Post by nickthegreek »

lynndotpy wrote: post #69
nickthegreek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they need to? It functions the same way all oximeters do, which have been around for decades. My friend is heavily tattooed and their apple watch doesn't even know its on their wrist and they lost alot of functionality because of that. They would love for it to work but understand the limitations of the technology currently.

Apple already lists many limitations of their technology, and not everyone has the benefit of the knowledge of the limitations of each component of the devices. Many customers of the Watch have not even been around for decades plural. We pay Apple to understand the internals they put in their watch, so they should be the ones to describe the limitations of their technology.

Companies marketing departments do not go around creating a list of issues with their products unless a government mandates they do so (rx meds, nicotine, liquor).

I am unaware of Apple listing limitations of any of their technologies. Could you provide a few examples?

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