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Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

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Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#61

Post by wefarrell »

KunafaPizza wrote: post #42

Seeing a lot of people here saying wearing hijab is a free-choice in Islam. As a Muslim this is totally wrong. Religion is not just "I believe in God" and now I can do whatever I want. There are rules and regulations that must be followed in private and public life. This is how Islam has always worked. Traditionally, the Islamic government legislates and enjoins these rules upon the people. Hijab is one of those rule…

“From our perspective there is no logical difference between this and Western dress codes in public.”

Western dress codes generally do not distinguish between men and women and for the most part the convention against exposing women’s breasts in public is not a legal one, and there are protests. And where there are protests the protestors aren’t being tortured and killed like they are in Iran.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#62

Post by sjducb »

nashashmi wrote: post #38
obituary_latte wrote: post #7

I feel proud as a human to see these brave women standing up for their rights and wish them and their fellow countrypeople all of the success with no bloodshed. It's time we move out of the age of religious compulsion on all fronts.

When we encourage people to protest their govt, we endanger their lives while being risk free of our own. I fear that many of the people who have encouraged these protests are still in the shadows smiling everytime someone dies. Alinejad is one of them.

I think that the protestors want as much support as possible. If you take the risk to protest then you want your allies and supporters to cheer you on.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#63

Post by jemmyw »

erenyeager wrote: post #59
kbelder wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>From this regard, is not it freedom to have society less restrained by basal desires and the widespread practice of modesty makes it easier to be private with regard to exposing one’s body? No, it's not. That's a primitive manner of thought that we have hopefully progressed from over the last couple centuries. Freedom is individual choice, not an imposition from another person.

Is there truly freedom? This is a deep question beyond patronizing insults about primitiveness. What freedom is there truly, when humans are so prone to influences that would seem to chain them. What freedom is there if one becomes addicted to some substance, for example? What freedom is there in being distracted from one’s purpose and higher rational aims due to being in a temptous environment? I think you will not…

What makes those higher rational aims so special? Why are they higher? Aren't you also distracted from your "purpose" by needing to eat and rest? So why not also by the need for beautiful company?

You don't really have a purpose in the greater scheme of things. Your desire to not be distracted shouldn't impinge on others. If it's so important to you then lock yourself away rather than chaining the dress code of women or anyone you might find attractive.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#64

Post by orlp »

rayiner wrote: post #33
ameen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is, as a practicing muslim - there is no compulsion in religion (direct quote from the Qur'an). Iran literally is using the ignorance of the populace to push their own means of controlling the masses.

(My dad’s grandfather was an imam.) That means that you can’t compel people to convert to Islam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256 . That does not mean you can’t have binding religious law Muslims are required to follow. That being said, the religious requirement is modest dress. Some traditions interpret that to require covering the hair or face. Other traditions do not. Hijab was uncommon in Bangladesh wh…

That works until you end up with one scholar saying A and another saying B.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#65

Post by nashashmi »

sjducb wrote: post #62
nashashmi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we encourage people to protest their govt, we endanger their lives while being risk free of our own. I fear that many of the people who have encouraged these protests are still in the shadows smiling everytime someone dies. Alinejad is one of them.

I think that the protestors want as much support as possible. If you take the risk to protest then you want your allies and supporters to cheer you on.

Except this movement was not started by the protestors on the ground. It was started by protestors on twitter, some of whom spread false news to exacerbate the situation.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#66

Post by ameen »

rayiner wrote: post #33
ameen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is, as a practicing muslim - there is no compulsion in religion (direct quote from the Qur'an). Iran literally is using the ignorance of the populace to push their own means of controlling the masses.

(My dad’s grandfather was an imam.) That means that you can’t compel people to convert to Islam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256 . That does not mean you can’t have binding religious law Muslims are required to follow. That being said, the religious requirement is modest dress. Some traditions interpret that to require covering the hair or face. Other traditions do not. Hijab was uncommon in Bangladesh wh…

Thank you for the contextualization - but Iran’s handling is nowhere close to Islamic, not observing the hijab doesn’t take you out of the fold of Islam (also where have men been held to the hijab - covering awrah, in such places?) - the 5 pillars are the fardh, everything else is something we strive towards.

Allah SWT’s mercy is boundless, hudhud punishments can’t be enacted for something minor of this sort. Iranian government lost the plot and is using every excuse to feign legitimacy when it never had any.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#67

Post by kelipso »

yakubin wrote: post #16
esperent wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an example of a dog whistle? Unspecified "Muslim people on Facebook" say something you are almost certain to disagree with. No examples, no nuance, just a call to racism.

Islam is not a race.

If it's made from an American POV, it's basically equivalent to a race.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#68

Post by u801e »

erenyeager wrote: post #60
u801e wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Muslim, my view is that clothing that attracts attention of others doesn't fulfill the purpose of hijab. So, if you're the only one wearing a head covering, people are going to pay unnecessary attention to you. The same applies if you're the only one not wearing one. Basically, as long as you're not dressing in a way that attracts attention to yourself, then you're fulfilling the purpose of hijab.

This is against the orthodox Islamic interpretations if you’re saying that a free woman can uncover her hair in public if that’s the social norm. It is quite well known what the limits of awrah are (the parts that need to be covered). If everyone is wearing bikinis, it doesn’t make bikinis permissible. So if this is only your opinion, it is not an opinion based in sound evidence, or at least please bring some to supp…

There's substantial disagreement around this issue in the Muslim world as evidenced by the fact that many women don't wear head coverings. But I will say that if you're attracting attention to yourself in an effort to be modest, then that's a logical contradiction. Allah gave us the ability to reason and based on one's ability to read through the source material (Quran and Hadith), one should be able to come up with a reasonable interpretation.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#69

Post by michaeltimo »

nashashmi wrote: post #38
obituary_latte wrote: post #7

I feel proud as a human to see these brave women standing up for their rights and wish them and their fellow countrypeople all of the success with no bloodshed. It's time we move out of the age of religious compulsion on all fronts.

When we encourage people to protest their govt, we endanger their lives while being risk free of our own. I fear that many of the people who have encouraged these protests are still in the shadows smiling everytime someone dies. Alinejad is one of them.

The main reason for these demonstrations is the systematic repression of this corrupt dictator's regime for over 4 decades, and not the coverage of the news and the reflection of the people's voices by Iranian journalists like Alinejad. What causes the killing of people is this bloodthirsty regime and its dictator, Khamenei. Please don't write the regime's fallacies here, no one buys it.

Re: Iranian women compete at chess tournament without hijab: media reports

#70

Post by erenyeager »

u801e wrote: post #68
erenyeager wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is against the orthodox Islamic interpretations if you’re saying that a free woman can uncover her hair in public if that’s the social norm. It is quite well known what the limits of awrah are (the parts that need to be covered). If everyone is wearing bikinis, it doesn’t make bikinis permissible. So if this is only your opinion, it is not an opinion based in sound evidence, or at least please bring some to supp…

There's substantial disagreement around this issue in the Muslim world as evidenced by the fact that many women don't wear head coverings. But I will say that if you're attracting attention to yourself in an effort to be modest, then that's a logical contradiction. Allah gave us the ability to reason and based on one's ability to read through the source material (Quran and Hadith), one should be able to come up with…

I would like to note the fact that some numbers of people comply or do not comply in accordance with divine law does not imply a disagreement with the validity of the law. Rather, it may be due to someone’s ignorance, or shortcomings that they make mistakes.

Many orthodox methodologies of deriving legal rulings (fiqh) from Islamic sources already exist. Scholars from all orthodox schools of thought agree on the woman’s hair being part of what must be covered.

One can come up with many interpretations of divine revelation, but unless someone is guided on the right path, they may come up with conclusions that go astray from the correct way. This is the last part of the supplication of Surah Al-Fatihah (opening chapter of the Quran): a request to be guided on the right path and not of those who are displeasing or misguided.

So I think when you say substantial disagreement, this is not correct. Someone may accept that what they are doing is wrong but are too weak to change. Also, if the people who disagree are not educated or well-studied, their opinion holds less weight than an expert in that particular field.

Reason is very important, which is why interpreting revelation without considering the scholarly tradition may lead to unreasonable conclusions.

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