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‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

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Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#61

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

H1B is a dual intent visa. It has never been just temporary, the idea that H1B workers can seek permanent residence is built into the visa. (It is not built into most other visas.)

Many H1B workers wish to become citizens but can't due to decades-long backlogs. If your post is actually meant to campaign for them to get quicker green cards and citizenship, I applaud you.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#62
post #31

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

The idea that H-1B workers suppress US wages is a harmful myth that gets thrown around HN a lot. The study that supports the claim that the H-1B program suppresses US tech wages is about 20 years old, and no longer reflects the current reality. In fact, a 2017 Glassdoor study found that the wages of H-1B workers were 2.8% higher than their American counterparts: https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ The US…

There might technically be enough Americans who would like to make FAANG-level wages and know how to use a computer and are willing to be an engineer.

But there's definitely not enough Americans skilled enough for those jobs.

Should FAANG be forced to train Americans rather than hire H1B workers? I don't know.

It's a mystery to me they bring people to the US instead of just employ them in other countries in the first place.

But if the US didn't allow H1B workers, they definitely would.

Should American companies not be able to have foreign offices staffed with foreign workers? I don't know.

But this sounds like a recipe for handicapping American companies vs global competitor...

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#63
post #31

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

The idea that H-1B workers suppress US wages is a harmful myth that gets thrown around HN a lot. The study that supports the claim that the H-1B program suppresses US tech wages is about 20 years old, and no longer reflects the current reality. In fact, a 2017 Glassdoor study found that the wages of H-1B workers were 2.8% higher than their American counterparts: https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ The US…

> In fact, a 2017 Glassdoor study found that the wages of H-1B workers were 2.8% higher than their American counterparts

The problem with this is that H1B workers work a lot more than 2.8% harder, on average, and companies know this.

Many H1B workers are practically abused. They may be doing the work of two engineers. Unlike a typical work relationship between an upper-middle class professional and a tech company, separating from the company may not be realistic recourse because the work-visa immigration status is a Damoclean sword.

I've seen this bite even harder for L1B immigrants who work for multinational tech companies and get lured to the US from abroad, because even if you find another company willing to sponsor your H1B you are still subject to the caps. It's pretty messed up.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#64
post #48
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that H-1B workers suppress US wages is a harmful myth that gets thrown around HN a lot. The study that supports the claim that the H-1B program suppresses US tech wages is about 20 years old, and no longer reflects the current reality. In fact, a 2017 Glassdoor study found that the wages of H-1B workers were 2.8% higher than their American counterparts: https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ The US…

Perhaps it is a myth with no basis. That said, increased supply decreasing demand is usually the null case, yes? So I'd want to see evidence that additional workers do not supress wages.

Basically what you're asking for is protectionism. How is it different than putting tariffs on Japanese cars to make american cars less uncompetitive?

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#65

Unpopular opinion, but I'd argue the last ~50 years of legalized abortion, with over 60 million lives lost, also accounts for a large percentage of the missing workforce. (Even more so when you consider the loss of their children and their children's children.) > 18% of the workforce has been wiped out by abortion, and this number will climb to 23% by 2035.^1 > While labor force participation may rise in the short ru…

The difference is that bodily autonomy is good, actually.

The meta level is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Most arguments are best evaluated at the object level.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#66

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

>The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them.

This is a bogus self-serving argument that is offered by many entitled "American programmers" who want wage hyperinflation. Tech workers are among the highest paid professions anywhere, and still people like you complain about wage suppression, ha! How self-serving & entitled of you.

There is 100%+ employment in tech, and the people "looking for work" you speak of, wouldn't even pass a basic programming test and unemployable IMO.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#67

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

H1B is an easy scapegoat. You see people of certain nationalities on visa and think ohh the companies are bringing in cheap labor. The reality is that most of them would be citizens if the immigration laws were created equal. You wouldn’t see that many people on visa if they didn’t have to stay on it for decades. People come from Europe all the time and become citizens, and you don’t say “ohh look at all these foreig…

>Create a fair immigration system and you won’t see H1Bs around for long.

You hit the Nail right on the Head!

H1B is being used as an easy scapegoat for all the ills plaguing the US labour market.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#68
post #31

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

The idea that H-1B workers suppress US wages is a harmful myth that gets thrown around HN a lot. The study that supports the claim that the H-1B program suppresses US tech wages is about 20 years old, and no longer reflects the current reality. In fact, a 2017 Glassdoor study found that the wages of H-1B workers were 2.8% higher than their American counterparts: https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ The US…

also consider that we issued more than 350k student visas this year. if the h1-b cap is 85k then we are giving immigrants some of best college-level education in the world and then refusing to hire >75% of them. this has never made sense to me.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#69

The sad fact is that we have enough software developers in America to fully meet all of every American companies technical needs; The problem is that these companies don't want to meet the market demands of that labor pool by paying what that market is asking to keep that sustainable, so they want to import people who they can abuse to temporarily lower labor prices for them. And the number of Americans I know who wo…

H-1B workers, look around you. This is the top comment here. Imagine for a second that you support a union. When you take your seat at the union meeting, someone like this sits down on your left, on your right, in front of you, and behind you.

Imagine you provide a tech union with manpower. Who do you think will hold the reins? You or some guy like this? Will you arm them so that they can execute on what they dream of?

Consider carefully what a union of people like this can do. Consider carefully what you will support. In the end, they have themselves to look after.

Re: ‘Two years of lost immigration’ is responsible for half of missing workforce

#70
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true rhetorically (the favorite specific topic being the "dreamers"), but there is no will to fix the H1B program at all by Democratic leadership. The status quo is great for businesses, a big part of their power base. It's not even bad for support from organized labor (though that matters less and less in real elections as union membership has been in decline for decades), since H1Bs are largely employed in n…

It's bigger than that, democrats currently just cry about how bad the Republicans are to get votes and donations then when they're in office they do nothing to fix anything.

Step #0 to any significant policy reform is eliminating the Senate filibuster, followed by step #1: controlling both houses and the presidency.

The only truly radical policy that has come out of Congress in decades was Obamacare, and that was precisely because the Democrats were just barely able to assemble 60 votes in the Senate. (Most Democrats wanted single-payer, or at least a single-payer option, but a bill including single-payer couldn't clear a 60 vote hurdle as at least one Democrat, Joe Lieberman, publicly opposed single-payer.) And even then, with the death of Ted Kennedy they immediately lost the ability to beat a filibuster, which is why the House was forced to pass the Senate bill verbatim, which was unusual. Usually there's a reconciliation process for bills passed between the two houses, after which each house has a pro forma vote on the reconciled bill. But even a pro forma vote on a reconciled bill is subject to a Senate filibuster, with the exception of purely budgetary bills, which Obamacare clearly wasn't. (There were subsequent changes passed as budgetary amendments, though, both by Democrats and later by Republicans--e.g. elimination of the individual mandate penalty.)

And don't forget, precisely because the Democrats passed Obamacare, the Republicans swept the 2010 election, taking the House and taking 6 Senate seats from the Democrats--who went from 56 in 2010 to 53 in 2011, not counting the 2 seats lost earlier in 2010--in December 2009 Democrats had 58 votes plus 2 Independents. The 2010 election was the biggest rout in 60 years.

Unless and until the Senate filibuster goes away, you can't really make any sweeping claims about what policies a party could or would actually enact. Because of the filibuster the parties are beholden to a handful of members. I'm not entirely sure the filibuster should be eliminated, but if I were a Senator I probably wouldn't stand in the way, either.

If you follow the politics, both houses and both parties could easily enact significant immigration reform on a simple majority vote. Albeit not radical reform so long as the filibuster existed. However, immigration has proven a tremendous wedge issue for Republicans, which Trump leveraged to great effect. Moreover, even though a vast majority of Americans and Congressmen wish to change the status quo, any specific, concrete policies lead to a lot of heated disagreement because it turns out different people have conflicting motivations for wanting reform, especially within the Republican camp. Moreover, the Republicans learned a lesson watching Obamacare--if you can't enact perfect reform (i.e. Democrats being forced to compromise on single-payer), your own supporters will crucify and disown you. A big part of the Republican 2010 sweep was upset Democrats walking away because they didn't get their preferred option. So especially for Republicans, immigration reform is a lose-lose-lose.

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