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What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

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Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#61
post #13

People who complain about extreme fed policy should look to congress. The inability of congress to address core economic and financial issues forces the feds hand.

Very accurate. The dysfunction of congress led to a much slower economic recovery after the GFC due to sequestration and partisan debt ceiling games. Then went far the other way with huge tax cuts, huge spending, followed by even more spending by the current admin, and claim surprise at the resulting inflation. If we do have a recession coming, we are in a very bad position to cushion it at the moment due to political partisanship.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course unrealized gains won't be taxable, but they can't be spent either. They can be spent if you have a low interest LOC at a bank backed by your assets like stocks.

Don't get me wrong, unrealized gains are a useful and great thing to have. I would rather have them over nothing any day. However, you can't get that off your books without realizing gain at some point. It pushes tax burden into the future, but doesn't eliminate it

If you have enough money you can push it into the future more or less indefinitely.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#63

My friend that has been a general contractor for around ten years acts like it's not even worth doing his job anymore now that interest rates are going up.

Interesting. I just asked the builder that built my house* and he said his business hasn't slowed down at all. His primary location since I'm sure that matters a lot: suburbs north of Dallas. * We got the land right before the boom in prices. Paid super inflated prices for materials. Finalized a mortgage before the recent rate increases. I guess overall we came out ahead?

I think it's going to take some time to settle a bit. Even though interest rates are high, the US is very low on housing stock and very low on labor. If there's a lot of demand for new units and very little labor to build new units, then they might not see business slow down.

Likewise, rates have dropped a decent amount from their highs earlier in the year. Zillow seems to indicate that rates have dropped around 0.7 percentage points (like 6.9% to 6.2%). I think a big issue is that people don't believe the Fed will keep rates high for more than 12-18 months. If rates are already calming down and you don't believe the Fed will make it impossible for people to buy/sell homes for the next 5-10 years, then the interest rates don't matter that much so we aren't going to see a dip in demand because people don't actually believe they'll be paying the monthly that they're signing on for.

Let's say that the Fed pushes rates 1-1.5 points higher and we see 8% mortgages. Let's say the Fed keeps mortgages at 8% for the next 5 years. We'll definitely see a huge shift in the housing market. A $750,000 place is $2,530/mo at 3%, $3,675/mo at 6.2%, and $4,403/mo at 8%. Right now, people are thinking "I have to spend an extra grand a month for a year and then refinance it." If that becomes, "I'm going to have to spend an extra two grand a month basically forever," that changes things a lot.

People's perceptions matter. Everyone is assuming that the 3% mortgage is coming back soon. I'm not criticizing those people - I also think the 3% mortgage is coming back. I think it's politically kinda impossible for it not to come back - we'd be locking a generation out of home ownership even more than they already are and we'd be locking people into their current housing since if they sold and bought a new place at the higher rate, they'd be paying so much more for the same quality housing. In the reality created by our collective perception, we're all continuing to value things at those prices.

Literally, the Fed hasn't lowered interest rates. It has continued to increase rates, but banks seem to be betting that won't last long and so mortgage rates are falling a bit.

I'd also note that the two of you might be comparing different things. You're talking about you building a home for yourself with (presumably) a 30-year mortgage. The other person might be talking about a contractor buying a house with a loan, refurbishing it over 6-18 months, and selling it. In that case, the long-term interest prospects don't matter. In fact, the high interest rates may have put a damper on how much people will pay for premium places while simultaneously making his job a lot more expensive. 6.2% vs 3% basically means $37,000 in interest vs. $18,000 for the first year. If you're looking to put $100k into the house and sell it for $200k above what you bought it for, an extra $18k expense really cuts into your profits - especially if closing costs are going to be $30,000-60,000. You might flip a place faster than a year and it's only $10-12k in interest for a 6-month flip, but regardless it's taking a sizable chunk out of your profits.

Right now, I think a lot of buyers looking at 30-year mortgages expect to refinance in late-2023 or maybe 2024. However, the Fed is projecting rates to climb from 3.8% to 4.4-4.9% in 2023 which should see mortgage rates hit 7.5-8% - with Federal Funds rates probably only returning to around 3.8% in 2024 and around 3% in 2025 (with mortgage rates sticking around what we're seeing now).

I'm skeptical simply because it's going to cause so much chaos in the housing market. Yes, the Fed is meant to be independent, but they would be effectively locking current home owners in place and making it extremely expensive for new homebuyers while stalling a lot of construction that's desperately needed.

Still, there's a definite possibility that rates will remain high. In fact, the people we literally put in charge of this are saying that rates will remain high through 2024, in their estimation (and they set those rates, but of course conditions might change which would change their minds). If/when that reality sets in, I think we'll start to see much larger impacts.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#64

My friend that has been a general contractor for around ten years acts like it's not even worth doing his job anymore now that interest rates are going up.

Because contractors charge you however much money you have available, which is how construction costs magically go up and down with home market values. I have a list of them I will not be using during this downturn.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#65
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is that? what kind of contractor?

His firm develops multi-unit buildings in Chicago, mostly residential. I think he is just annoyed that the easy money is drying up, and that it hurts his bottom line or business in general. Based on his attitude, though, I'm just amazed that the type of project his firm takes on were so dependent on money being cheap. They also operated a lot on a fixed cost basis, and sudden price increases were not accurately facto…

>He wants without price stability and cheap money and has neither.

He wants what?

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me wrong, unrealized gains are a useful and great thing to have. I would rather have them over nothing any day. However, you can't get that off your books without realizing gain at some point. It pushes tax burden into the future, but doesn't eliminate it

If you have enough money you can push it into the future more or less indefinitely.

Until you die. At which point your heirs get a "stepped up basis" to the date of your death without paying any capital gains tax, under the theory that they pay estate tax instead. But estate tax starts at $10M or so these days. And don't worry if you have more money than that - you've got enough breathing room to create irrevocable trusts to skip estate tax and distribute income directly to your low tax bracket decedents in perpetuity.

For an example of how much the IRS theoretically cares about not being able to kick income down the road - basically the entirety of retirement savings regulations revolve around the controlled ability to do just that.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#67
post #11

“All of this has led to weird idiosyncrasies, euphoria, and contradictions. Stocks ballooned, tripling in value since 2009” This is like 9% compounded for 13 years, which is in line with historic averages.

I wonder if devastating global wars (and pandemics) over the previous century(ies) makes for a confusing baseline to construct "historic averages".

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#68
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a stock buyback, the investor only is made whole by "exiting" the stock. I.e., if that stock has voting rights, and you're more interested in being able to influence as a shareholder, you're left out of the "lifting of every risk sinker" when a company does a buyback. In fact, it guarantees that the amount of shareholder influence as a whole decreases, because if someone were to reacquire that share it would be mo…

If a company does a buyback, shouldn't you still have a higher percent control if you dont sell any of your holdings, and the same % control if you do sell the dividend equivalent Imagine a company has 100 shares and I own 10. If they company buys back 50, the stock price will double, and my % ownership goes up from 10 to 20%. I can sell down to 10%, the same control I had before to take my profits. What am I missing…

Stock price can't double. The amount of cash the company has must decrease by an amount equal to half its market cap. That should do something roughly equivalent to the value of the company.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#69

Just wait until we enter the ‘decades long workforce population decline’ period. Once GDP growth decreases by population shrinkage, investing will be fun again!

Well just keep desperately importing people from other countries, unlike Japan and Co. Or, for the other side of the political spectrum, ban abortions/birth control.

Banning abortions/birth control has already been tried by Romania. It was the inspiration for the book The Handmaid's Tale. In Romania today, banning abortions/birth control would be a political death sentence due to peoples' memories of the results the last time it was tried.

Re: What if your entire worldview was just because of near-zero interest rates?

#70
post #11

“All of this has led to weird idiosyncrasies, euphoria, and contradictions. Stocks ballooned, tripling in value since 2009” This is like 9% compounded for 13 years, which is in line with historic averages.

Hm, but we've had zero interest rates that entire time so shouldn't we have expected even higher returns? E.g. what would the 90s have looked like with zero rates?

Lowering rates will give a boost to the stock market in the short to medium term. In the long term, returns will settle closer to the interest rate in question (plus a risk premium). See: Japan over the last couple of decades.
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