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An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

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61–70 of 198 posts

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.

I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position". I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.

I think libertarian socialism does exactly that but in this case what's being argued for is JG (and UBI) which would help empower many, so we shouldn't be arguing against those things (not saying you are.)

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position". I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.

UBI would go a long way towards pulling the very poor up out of the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate."

We don't have that cycle in Germany at all. Yet we don't see any of the promises of UBI materializing.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#63

It seems like this sort of thing will make more sense in rural areas with a low cost of living, like where they tried this? If so that's fine. Programs don't need to be universal to work well.

> Programs don't need to be universal to work well. Love this attitude! So often on HN we see responses like "It doesnt work in , because " ... To which it seems so obvious like "then dont do it in that case?"

Is there a name for this response template? It would be helpful to be able to reference by name rather than prototype when it comes up again.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#64
History has shown full employment does not work. The most famous example being communist countries such as the USSR. They achieved full employment, except that it was mostly useless labor. Sure, you have a job. But your job is to count buckets of nails by hand all day. When you're done with that you go back to the beginning and count them again. You'll get paid a pittance for your trouble. However, I would not call this "valuable work". Or, work that the article supposes would provide someone some meaning.

> So far, a hundred and twelve people have used the Job Guarantee, as the program is known, to find work; at least fifty more are expected to do so before 2024, when the program is scheduled to end. Participants complete an eight-week training course, then receive a job offer; they’re free to decline it without losing their unemployment benefits, but so far everyone who’s been offered a job has chosen to work.

This is insane on principle when scaled up to a society. You can get trained, be offered a job (under the assumption of livable pay), and then can refuse it and stay on the government tit? NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. This will never work. It's the BS machinations of an overeducated academic trying to prove a point. If you accept tax payer funded job training you should be obligated to take the first job, in that field, that pays you the minimum liveable wage. Otherwise it's anarchy.

> Sven Hergovich, the regional director of the Public Employment Service of Lower Austria, essentially agrees with this analysis. He thinks that rising demands for productivity and efficiency mean that, now and in the future, not everyone will be able to find a job without support. “There are not sufficient jobs available for all of the long-term unemployed,” he told me. “In fact, we have only two options. Either we finance long-term unemployment, or we create a job guarantee.”

Some people are useless. This is not any different than any other time in history. There are people who, if it wasn't for menial work, would actually be fundamentally useless by the definition of the term. The internet calls these people NEETS. They are generally burdens on society and IMO we should just let nature run it's course. They will either starve or skill up. Either way, society wins.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#65

Job guarantees make more sense to me than UBI; the government only has to pay for those who aren't employed elsewhere while it still sets a floor for the entire economy about how bad a job can be, squeezing out jobs that are worse than the JG jobs. But I'm still collecting facts and quite open to being wrong. On my list to read: 'The case for a job guarantee', Tcherneva. [0] ' http://pavlina-tcherneva.net/the-case-fo…

It seems like a no-brainer to me for Social Security to include Guaranteed Employment of a full-time federal minimum-wage income position.

Just add a debit card to the social security card citizens receive. They can use the debit card to withdraw up to a full-time minimum-wage amt of money per month. If they take the income, it's assumed they did some kind of proportional work. I don't think there's even any need to police it.

Simply characterizing it as employment and establishing the expectation that consumers of the program perform work for their country/community commensurate for what they withdraw is miles better than UBI in my opinion. Most people are honest, and frankly a lot of the people I know would work more hours than full-time, it'd just be volunteer-like work helping people and cleaning up around the neighborhood, and probably creating a lot of public art. Positive things to facilitate, and largely not things for-profit businesses would pay for.

It's also nice to couple it to the already established federal minimum-wage, which already has an (admittedly lacking) process for adjusting to keep up with inflation. We should ensure the minimum-wage reflects a minimum livable wage by modern standards, and guaranteed employment would always provide a worst-case income of a minimum livable wage.

I don't think we're lacking of good options for these style solutions. We're just lacking support in the general public for such a socialist-looking program. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and all that.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.

I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position". I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.

Re a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position".

It is only complex if avoiding questions about the value of human dignity, and the inability of laissez faire capitalism to deliver that, need to be avoided.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#67

Job guarantees make more sense to me than UBI; the government only has to pay for those who aren't employed elsewhere while it still sets a floor for the entire economy about how bad a job can be, squeezing out jobs that are worse than the JG jobs. But I'm still collecting facts and quite open to being wrong. On my list to read: 'The case for a job guarantee', Tcherneva. [0] ' http://pavlina-tcherneva.net/the-case-fo…

Full employment never works. Famous example is the soviets. Neither can UBI be penciled into an actual economy. UBI would bankrupt the nation, so would a large scale job guarantee program as described.

I am never surprised. When asked to put a dollar value on a program the overeducated go on bleeting about higher order non-sense. It's hard to take any of these academic exercises seriously. Especially when they spawn from fields as fraudulent as economics and social science.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#68
post #64

History has shown full employment does not work. The most famous example being communist countries such as the USSR. They achieved full employment, except that it was mostly useless labor. Sure, you have a job. But your job is to count buckets of nails by hand all day. When you're done with that you go back to the beginning and count them again. You'll get paid a pittance for your trouble. However, I would not call t…

> Otherwise it's anarchy.

Omigod! Not ANARCHY!

> just let nature run it's course. They will either starve or skill up.

You sound nice.

I actually agree with you about universal employment being a crock. Just do a UBI already. Not only will that work better, but it will have entertainment value when your head explodes.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#69
post #6

In Soviet Union, they were. Among other things, universal employment shown to do the same as no employment: a lot of people binge drinking and not caring to do anything useful with their life. Work ethic problems surfaced in a bad way.

It doesn't seem to have changed post 1991 either.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programs don't need to be universal to work well. Love this attitude! So often on HN we see responses like "It doesnt work in , because " ... To which it seems so obvious like "then dont do it in that case?"

Is there a name for this response template? It would be helpful to be able to reference by name rather than prototype when it comes up again.

Seems like a subcategory of whataboutism.
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