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Remote work is gutting downtowns

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Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#61

Post by ericmay »

robertlagrant wrote: post #48
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A place where people live.

I'm not from the US - what is downtown used for today?

In many, probably almost all US cities any downtown areas is used for "business" - i.e. commercial offices. The living pattern is you wake up, drive anywhere from 10-40 miles, 10 minutes to 2 hours, and you park your car in a parking garage and then walk a block to a skyscraper where you go up into an office area.

After World War II the US built highways that destroyed most cities. Take a look at the 1949 image and then the 1981 to get an idea [1]. The root cause of many of America's continued problems, ranging from racism and classism, to oil and car dependency are linked to what we did over the years.

[1] https://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/06/24/7-photos-show-how-det...

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#63

Post by brookst »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #53
brookst wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walk me through that thinking? Downtown residents walk and use transit. Places with broader distribution of people typically rely on roads because transit isn’t economically efficient. My intuition is that higher population densities are more environmentally efficient because more people can be served by any resource. Are you thinking otherwise?

I do not see how it could be more efficient from a first principles perspective. Energy = force * distance = mass * acceleration * distance. Broader distributions means increases in distance means increase in energy consumption. And usually having more space means having more stuff, which means an increase in mass, which also results in increase in energy consumption.

The only counter-thought I’ve got is that maybe there are some things that aren’t necessary in lower density populations, like say streetlights at night.

But the bulk of the environmental impact of civilization seems like it is more efficient at density, though I suppose the negative effects may be more concentrated and visible (a few big trucks making deliveries rather than a huge number of small vehicles)

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#64

Post by overthemoon »

Elidrake42 wrote: post #18

A bit off topic; I of course understand that I'm an odd situation and not representative of the broader trend at play here... But moving into remote work inspired my partner and I to move into Manhattan from the sprawling car driven nightmare that was Phoenix. Tiny little studio, but we've never been particularly materialistic, a murphy bed massively opens up the space, and no office to go into means once the day is…

Wisconsin rocks. Moved back here after almost 20 years in/around Chicago. I love Chicago dearly, but I'm glad we made the choice.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#66

Post by woodruffw »

jksmith wrote: post #43
wildrhythms wrote: post #3

These seeds were sowed when cities cashed in on commercial real estate, pushing residential zoning further and further out of the city. Wake up call: nobody wants to spend longer than they have to on an unpaid, unpredictable commute into the city anymore. So while these downtown businesses are getting 1/3 of the foot traffic that they used to, all the supermarkets and shops a few miles down the road are raking it in.

Carr's "The Big Switch" in reverse. Technology ushering in a decentralization effect. And that's fine. Work at home. Communities buy micro reactors, Starlink ready to go. Low carbon produce that doesn't have chemical shit all over it. Maybe testosterone rates go up, maybe cancer rates go down. Probably a good idea all around.

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids[1].

[1]: https://youtu.be/N1KvgtEnABY

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#67

Post by MengerSponge »

highwaylights wrote: post #19
wildrhythms wrote: post #3

These seeds were sowed when cities cashed in on commercial real estate, pushing residential zoning further and further out of the city. Wake up call: nobody wants to spend longer than they have to on an unpaid, unpredictable commute into the city anymore. So while these downtown businesses are getting 1/3 of the foot traffic that they used to, all the supermarkets and shops a few miles down the road are raking it in.

I used to get the bus to work about 10 years ago because parking in the city became so expensive (I stopped long before Covid hit). The thing I don't miss is that I got sick every single Winter. All it takes is one inconsiderate person to not cover their mouth and everyone is getting ill. And it happened all the time . I had a commute time that ranged between one and two hours over that stretch as I'd lived in a coup…

I've had funny conversations about why I still wear a good n95 on public transit (planes included). My right-leaning and remarkably well educated parents are incredulous.

A few years ago I thought personal masking didn't really matter. Wow, I was wrong! And not catching bs colds from weirdos on the bus or the grocery store makes it worth it.

My face isn't that pretty anyway.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#69

Post by alistairSH »

robertlagrant wrote: post #48
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A place where people live.

I'm not from the US - what is downtown used for today?

Depends how you define "downtown"...

Most US cities have a central business district that is majority commercial office space, with just enough retail/dining to let workers take lunch breaks. These are the areas that are dying. No workers, so the surrounding retail/dining is failing.

Back in the 50s/60s, white flight was a problem for cities - most of the middle class, white families moved to the suburbs. Most cities didn't have a large tax base that lived inside the city. That started to change over the last 20 years or so. Couple that with off-shoring or moving of heavy industry out of city cores and cities will struggle financially without white-collar/knowledge workers commuting in and spending money.

Western Europe doesn't have the same level of suburban sprawl.

Edit - the white flight I mention is closely related to the inner-city highways mentioned in the sibling comment. Suburban workers needed to get downtown, so (usually minority) neighborhoods were split in two or destroyed to built highways from the outskirts into the CBD.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#70

Post by kibwen »

throwayyy479087 wrote: post #47
Elidrake42 wrote: post #18

A bit off topic; I of course understand that I'm an odd situation and not representative of the broader trend at play here... But moving into remote work inspired my partner and I to move into Manhattan from the sprawling car driven nightmare that was Phoenix. Tiny little studio, but we've never been particularly materialistic, a murphy bed massively opens up the space, and no office to go into means once the day is…

I see a LOT of people moving to NYC for this reason. Not Midtown or the Financial District, mind you - the UES, UWS, Williamsburg, etc. I did it. I don't commute but am so much happier here than with more space in suburbia.

Same perspective here. Even as a rural-boy-turned-inveterate-urbanite, I'm happy that people who don't want to live in the city are decreasingly forced to live in the city due to their jobs. There are plenty of people out there like me who were looking to escape to the city but who were stymied by all the people living in the city who wanted to escape to the country. I just prefer density and walkability/bikeability.
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