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Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

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Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#61
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. Plenty of companies offer product samples or free services upfront. But even if you think the author has no specific “sales” goal with the article, self-promotion still seems to be its main objective.

> Plenty of companies offer product samples or free services upfront Sure, but a startup using VC money to offer you something for free is very different from "I will personally volunteer to help you". Also the entire point of sharing articles is that they're being read, so there isn't any way to avoid implying they're doing "self-promotion" – should people just stop writing and sharing articles? Sometimes people are…

I might be inclined to agree with your points if the article weren’t mostly fluff, as stated in my original comment. The reason I read it was because I was genuinely interested in how this specific approach works in practice and how it applies to tech, but there was little actual information and a lot of what seemed like corporate cult-speak.

Perhaps the article is devoid of insightful content to such an extent that we were both forced to interpret its author’s motivations based on our preconceived notions of the idea they’re discussing. You believe they’re genuinely seeking to improve worker’s rights, and it just looks like another hustle to me.

One thing I can say for certain is that I did not get much from the article, and I suspect there will be comments that are shorter yet far more insightful than the article a few hours from now.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#62
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the commercial success of coops, your premise that the main reason for work is money does not hold up to scrutiny. If merely adequately compensated, money turns out to be really low on the list of things that actually motivates people.

If this is true why do well paying companies have their pick of employees and less well paying ones have to take their left overs? I exaggerate for effect but most companies don’t have anything like an attractive mission so they need to compete on pay, somewhat on benefits, but overwhelmingly on pay. Google and Goldman have no trouble hiring.

People differ, not everyone wants to work there. Also Goldman & perhaps not Google but Amazon have infamously high churn - suggesting to me the money's not enough to stay (maybe could never be) vs. next best, so they move on now they have the badge for their CV.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#63

It’s high time I stopped reading Medium articles shared here. I got the distinct feeling I was being sold something while reading it, and the last paragraph confirmed it. It’s filled with vague, corporatey platitudes about ego and altruism, and there’s almost nothing in it about how this concept applies specifically to tech . The supposed “cons” sound like the ad equivalents of leading questions: > The relationships…

Visible frustration sometimes counts as violent communication, according to the book.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#64

> Decision-making in cooperatives can be very daunting for beginners. Having 13 years+ of experience in cooperatives I can tell you that it is daunting even for old-timers. We started off with most decisions being made in weekly meeting (that sometimes dragged on for most of the day), and ended up with having monthly meetings for the large decisions, but weekly meetings in smaller groups instead. In short, meetings e…

That's just your experience. Many coops are run pretty efficiently.

Berkeley which was a major area for co-ops have almost none left. My family was part of a co-op. Challenges:

Often very political - seen as a good thing but can add conflict (ie divesting/not stocking/opposing apartheid Israel while some members are Jewish). No x because y etc - repeat for many topics.

Decision making - both hard and strong feelings internally- can lead to claims around “violent” communication, micro aggression, privilege, disrespect etc etc when there are disagreements. Coops will say a good thing, but I think can wear people out sometimes.

Accountability/performance mgmt. not always, but sometimes difficult to take action in this area - maybe a good thing - goal is to work together.

One interesting variant are employee owned businesses that do not run as co-ops. ESOPS etc. I’m not an expert at all, but I think there are a number of really industrial scale businesses that have this structure successfully.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#65
post #32

I'm currently part of the administration of a co-op. It's in Portugal and it's a Multisectorial co-op, meaning instead of being focused on one type of activity we do anything as long as we have a member with that skillset. We are an agregation of freelancers and small businesses that go from small scale farming, to web development or architecture. The coop serves as a way to have a lot of the nice things of a bigger…

Hello! Mind sharing the co-op name? I'm living in Portugal right now and I'm thinking about switching careers, so I might give that a look.

I'm part of Cooperativa Integral Minga in Montemor-o-Novo. We we're the first one in Portugal in the concept of Integral Cooperative (took some inspiration from Cooperativa Integral Catalana). In Portugal there's now a few coops based on the same general principles. Rizoma Coop In Lisbon, Regenerativa in S. Luís, Cooperativa da Terra in Aljezur, A Geradora in Trancoso, Coop. Cápsula in Leiria, Húmus in Madeira (in process of forming), Coop. AlmaOhana in Odemira and Estação Cooperativa also in Montemor. Feel free to get in contact if you want to know more.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#66

> Decision-making in cooperatives can be very daunting for beginners. Having 13 years+ of experience in cooperatives I can tell you that it is daunting even for old-timers. We started off with most decisions being made in weekly meeting (that sometimes dragged on for most of the day), and ended up with having monthly meetings for the large decisions, but weekly meetings in smaller groups instead. In short, meetings e…

This is a common mistake, actual functioning cooperatives operate like any other enterprise with an set executive structure a CEO and a board of directors. The big difference is the ownership model so shareholder meetings are basically employee meetings so a successful cooperative simply runs like any other business just one where the employees are treated as the shareholders they are when it comes to decision making…

What is the difference between a cooperative like you describe and a startup where employees are given shares?

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#67
post #35

I'm currently part of the administration of a co-op. It's in Portugal and it's a Multisectorial co-op, meaning instead of being focused on one type of activity we do anything as long as we have a member with that skillset. We are an agregation of freelancers and small businesses that go from small scale farming, to web development or architecture. The coop serves as a way to have a lot of the nice things of a bigger…

That is neat, so do members barter between each other? Or would that hurt accounting into supporting the central structure, or does it support direct barter?

Members do barter between each other, and members sometimes organize micro-credits between each other the central structure takes no percentage from those transactions. We encourage them to happen even if they are a bit more work with no moneraty compensation to the central structure. Whatever makes projects and cooperators thrive in the coop the management will very likely support it. It makes the whole ecossystem healtier and gives more reasons for people to want to be a contributing part of it.

We take 5% from goods and services sold through the cooperative to the outside world and that's what mantains the whole central structure.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#68

> Decision-making in cooperatives can be very daunting for beginners. Having 13 years+ of experience in cooperatives I can tell you that it is daunting even for old-timers. We started off with most decisions being made in weekly meeting (that sometimes dragged on for most of the day), and ended up with having monthly meetings for the large decisions, but weekly meetings in smaller groups instead. In short, meetings e…

I am unsure if fast turns is a thing of hierarchical organizations, especially the successful ones, what I see that the bigger (some say more successful) it is the slower it turns. Period. Also it's will to turn is lower by getting bigger, trying to stick to past success and methods as much as pussible because every change is constly and every change is risky, and the members don't want to risk the livelyhood of their family, rightfully. When have a choice then will rather not turn but go straight when it is big. I admit some big turn very quick, like Elon Musk with Twitter, but thats the other wrong end of the scale, finding the balance is not easy and most of the time unsuccessful except for a short period. And those could be attributed to luck in many many cases too. We remember the success stories not the failures (except the huge ones) and being sentimental with those being successful and gone. Big organizations' success come and go, rare to shine more than several decade and could die easily if the decisions are wrong (or forget to make decisions). How is their decision making is better then if they go away or fall? They grow quick, then comes an other due to the constant need for competition and the old one goes or falls back. The need for quick decisions and neckbraking pace is actually fuelled with quick decisions and neckbraking race of the organizations themselves and call it business setting if that was not their making but some kind of external condition. Also not always (or rarely) turn to a direction that is good for a society and not just for those very few being in the position of making the decision (mostly it is coincidental or side effect then). Also success of a hierarchical organization does not necessarily mean it is making any good for customers and people but just being big enough to force its views and interests on others. That's not really success and good then just a social form of violence.

Decisions are not easy when it affects lots of people and that's why those should be made as carefully as possible in the settings available and we know from social studies, it is proven, that individual decision making is quick, group decision making is accurate, in overall. For the group of people in the long run group decisions was better. As a side effect it was not making life unbearably quick by themselves and may eliminate the need for some of the quick decisions (some, as there are aspects outside of human groups that mandate actions, those cannot be eliminated).

Mostly philosophizing above.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common mistake, actual functioning cooperatives operate like any other enterprise with an set executive structure a CEO and a board of directors. The big difference is the ownership model so shareholder meetings are basically employee meetings so a successful cooperative simply runs like any other business just one where the employees are treated as the shareholders they are when it comes to decision making…

What is the difference between a cooperative like you describe and a startup where employees are given shares?

Startups that give out shares are rare. Startups tend to give options. Options take years to accumulate, and don't give any significant rights by themselves, such as voting or profit share. Employees can typically only afford to exercise options at key company financing events, because they have to sell many of the resulting shares to cover the cost of exercising and cost of tax.

Most startup employee recipients of options never get to exercise them for various reasons, often unable to due to cash flow or restrictive timing reasons, or because they aren't profitable (the employee would take a large financial loss). Many of those who do exercise the options get their shares after leaving the company or they're about to leave. And finally, of the small subset of employees who have shares as a result of exercising while still employed, the number of shares they have is a tiny percentage even in aggregate, so they have effectively no influence at shareholder meetings, if they choose to attend, and if their shares have voting rights which they don't always have.

In co-operatives, the majority of shares as well as voting rights are usually held by a high proportion of employees, so that's a completely different dynamic. As well as voting rights, it means any profit distributed as a dividend tends to go to employees as well.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common mistake, actual functioning cooperatives operate like any other enterprise with an set executive structure a CEO and a board of directors. The big difference is the ownership model so shareholder meetings are basically employee meetings so a successful cooperative simply runs like any other business just one where the employees are treated as the shareholders they are when it comes to decision making…

What is the difference between a cooperative like you describe and a startup where employees are given shares?

In a startup, employees usually don't really have much influence even if they have shares, because each successive funding round dilutes the existing shares.

Also, there's some significant differences in how shares work between cooperatives and corporations (at least in Germany, where I live). In a corporation, you get one vote per share, and shares can be freely traded once given out. In a cooperative, you only one vote per shareholder, no matter how many shares you hold, and shares cannot be traded. You can invest into the cooperative to get shares, and you can return your shares to get your capital back, but the cooperative gets final say in who gets to hold shares.

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