Live data from Hacker News

Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

theverge.com

61–70 of 73 posts

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"jihad"... Apple has indeed an islamic mindset : they have a prophet you cannot criticize without violent reactions (like being permbanned from forums).

These kinds of arguments only weakens your position. If you had something thoughtful to say, something of value, you would have said it. Instead you serve this nonsense, the only logical conclusion of which is that you can't think of anything meaningful to say about the topic at all.

Well, thank you for your violent reaction...

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#62
post #44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pro-IP argument from Apple's point of view goes something like this: In a world where everyone just copies everyone else freely (e.g. the desktop PC world) there is/would be much less innovation. The investments that go into many breakthrough products (iphone, ipad) are made with the understanding that IP protections are in place to prevent copycats from waltzing in and taking all the benefits later on. Take away…

>The investments that go into many breakthrough products (iphone, ipad) are made with the understanding that IP protections are in place to prevent copycats from waltzing in and taking all the benefits later on. But what was the breakthrough? The iPhone and iPad are successful because of design, attention to detail, and Apple's marketing muscle. There isn't anything technically earth shattering about either product -…

The iPhone and iPad are successful because of design, attention to detail, and Apple's marketing muscle.

True; however, I would argue that the marketing portion of their success comes as a result of painting each new product as a picture of revolutionary innovation. It's part of the image. Take that rouse away and you might be left with a less successful product.

Simply put, Apple relies on the lie.

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#63
post #2

Here's the patent in question, #5,946,647, filed Feb. 1, 1996: http://www.google.com/patents/US5946647 "A system and method causes a computer to detect and perform actions on structures identified in computer data... uses a pattern analysis unit ... to detect structures in the data, and links relevant actions to the detected structures. .... Thus, the user interface can present and enable selection of the detected st…

The best example of prior art that I know is Simson Garfinkel’s SBook, originally developed in 1991. Any steps required to get from Simson’s idea to Apple’s version seem (conceptually) trivial and obvious. http://simson.net/ref/sbook5/ It’s remarkable to me how much better SBook is at dealing with info like address book entries than anything mainstream today, 20 years later.

WikiWikiWeb may also be an example of prior art. It went online in 1994, with CamelCase words automatically being made into hyperlinks. URLs were also automatically transformed into hyperlinks as early as 1996. Unfortunately archive.org doesn't go any farther back than that, so I don't know if the feature was there from the very beginning.

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing Google with Apple. Apple doesn't make money on its App Store. It has a great app store to sell devices. In contrast, Google gives away adware products to earn more money (by tracking and spying on Android users).

The iTunes App Store doesn't work on anything else other than iOS. It's a complementary product that keeps people buying iDevices. It also keeps people buying from iTunes in general and Apple does make money from selling content. Google gives away adware products to earn more money (by tracking and spying on Android users). Oh please, like Apple isn't doing it. They've got the biggest, most important online content s…

So, WebOS programs is suppose to work on Windows Phone Nintendo games are suppose to work on Sony Playstation? Using your own words, Android "got customers by their balls in a way that Microsoft only dreams of" because Android Market doesn't work on a Dell.

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#65
post #51
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pro-IP argument from Apple's point of view goes something like this: In a world where everyone just copies everyone else freely (e.g. the desktop PC world) there is/would be much less innovation. The investments that go into many breakthrough products (iphone, ipad) are made with the understanding that IP protections are in place to prevent copycats from waltzing in and taking all the benefits later on. Take away…

> In a world where everyone just copies everyone else freely (e.g. the desktop PC world) there is/would be much less innovation. For a counterpoint, see e.g. Johanna Blakley's excellent TED talk on how the copyright-free fashion industry thrives despite rampant legal counterfeiting: http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashio...

When did a fashion house spend billions of dollars on R&D, a requirement for most significant tech products?

Please read "Are software patents evil?" http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2011/08/09/are-software-patent...

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they ever did manage to get Android killed in the way they seem to want to (Jobs' 'thermonuclear' option), don't they realize that would make them the 90's-Microsoft of smartphones? Not really, because it wouldn't. You don't see Apple going after WP7. Nor WebOS. Yes they are small competitors but that's only because Android is free and established, if there was no Android, they would pick up the slack quite quic…

The overall motivations of the company are irrelevant, what matters for antitrust concerns is marketshare plus using that marketshare as leverage to own other markets. Apple gets away with things like the 30% content tax on their devices because they don't have the sort of marketshare Microsoft enjoyed. In a world sans-Android and with the iPhone on all the major carriers, that would soon change. And sorry, I don't b…

Android also charges 30% content tax: http://support.google.com/androidmarket/developer/bin/answer...

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#67

"Greetings, Professor Falken." "Hello, Joshua." "Strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

Well, it seems that this one went over a few heads. I won't spoil it by describing what happens in the movie. Watch it. It's a good one.

The quote from the film, in the context of having watched it, describes, with great brevity that actions such as the one being discussed in this thread can actually have negative results. The permutations are many and complex. I'll go over a few:

1- Don't file patents. As someone said. Google tried this. Didn't work.

2- Don't sue. Lot's of companies take this approach. I can probably imagine that a company like IBM has so much covered that they could have a whole department doing nothing but suing other companies. They don't seem to be in that business. Then again, companies like Google have tried to remain outside the fray and, ultimately, had to invest in a $12 billion dollar arsenal to have some protection. Twelve billion dollars. So much wasted.

3- We all have patents and we all sue. Global Thermonuclear Patent War (GTPW): I sue you for everything I can and you counter-sue me with all you got. We go at it for years. I win sometimes and so do you. We burn through tons of cash that could have been used for far more productive pursuits. Progress slows. Nobody wins. Some loose in monumental ways.

4- Innovators with great ideas and drive become afraid of getting anywhere close to the GTPW and instead choose to focus their efforts elsewhere or simply abandon the field.

5- The GTPW is fueled by the failure of the patent system and ignorant politicians to do the right thing. Patents (the weapons of war) are granted to all participants at an ever-increasing rate. The wars escalate and, very soon, it is quite literally impossible to innovate. Attempting to innovate means to create an exposure to litigation and becoming embroiled in your own GTPW.

6- Investors begin to pull back because new ventures --and the money that went into them-- can evaporate in a microsecond if they even skirt the edges of the GTPW.

7- The Chinese don't give a crap about any of this so, while we are all engulfed in GTPW they continue to copy, learn, grow, experiment, build, invest, innovate and advance. Check mate.

8- Western political systems can't get out of its own way to save our own lives, so the situation continues to escalate until there's total meltdown --at which point it is too late.

9- Even in the face of having the gun to our own heads and the trigger partially pulled the western world refuses to act as the adults in the room and we continue, little by little, to pull the triggers that will ultimately destroy our way of life for decades, if not generations.

Then comes the realization: "Strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

So, you can see now that this short little quote from a geek movie actually is very relevant and excels at summarizing a wide range of scenarios that I've only glanced at. The failures of the patent system and what companies are doing to each other is but one of a myriad of problems created by incompetent governments around the world.

AT&T just had to spend three billion dollars because the government did not want to let it buy T-Mobile. Three billion dollars. What you hear is the huge sucking sound of innovation, jobs and growth leaving the room.

Someone, somewhere, somehow has to take a really good look at what is going on in the western world and start fixing problems right now. The path we are on leads to absolutely nothing that is good. In many ways it might already be too late.

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they ever did manage to get Android killed in the way they seem to want to (Jobs' 'thermonuclear' option), don't they realize that would make them the 90's-Microsoft of smartphones? Not really, because it wouldn't. You don't see Apple going after WP7. Nor WebOS. Yes they are small competitors but that's only because Android is free and established, if there was no Android, they would pick up the slack quite quic…

The overall motivations of the company are irrelevant, what matters for antitrust concerns is marketshare plus using that marketshare as leverage to own other markets. Apple gets away with things like the 30% content tax on their devices because they don't have the sort of marketshare Microsoft enjoyed. In a world sans-Android and with the iPhone on all the major carriers, that would soon change. And sorry, I don't b…

> And sorry, I don't believe WebOS or WP7 would factor into the conversation even if Android died

So everyone would use iPhones or dumb phones? I doubt that. There is little reason to think that is exactly what would have ended up happening if Android never had existed.

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they ever did manage to get Android killed in the way they seem to want to (Jobs' 'thermonuclear' option), don't they realize that would make them the 90's-Microsoft of smartphones? Not really, because it wouldn't. You don't see Apple going after WP7. Nor WebOS. Yes they are small competitors but that's only because Android is free and established, if there was no Android, they would pick up the slack quite quic…

I don't believe this for a second. Apple has a specific problem with Android because android has >50% market share. You have to be joking if you believe that Apple wouldn't consider the same actions against Microsoft if they had similar market share. The only differences are 1. Microsoft has a lot more lawfare equipment. 2. Microsoft has < 1% market share.

> I don't believe this for a second. Apple has a specific problem with Android because android has >50% market share.

Apple has been targeting them since before Android was popular. The Android project caused a huge rift between Apple and Google, this is well documented. Marketshare has nothing to do with it.

> You have to be joking if you believe that Apple wouldn't consider the same actions against Microsoft if they had similar market share.

I'm not joking. They would have little or no case as Microsoft actually paid attention to patents when developing WP7. Google didn't.

You also have no evidence of this, other than the fact that you don't like Apple. I have lots of evidence that marketshare was irrelevant to Steve Jobs Android hate, for instance it's documented in his bio.

> Microsoft has a lot more lawfare equipment.

I have no idea what this statement is supposed to mean.

> Microsoft has Really? That's the only difference?

How about the fact that WP7 is substantially different and original when compared to iOS and Android and they would have no case? No? That's not a difference? Ok...

Re: Apple wins ban of HTC devices at US International Trade Commission

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iTunes App Store doesn't work on anything else other than iOS. It's a complementary product that keeps people buying iDevices. It also keeps people buying from iTunes in general and Apple does make money from selling content. Google gives away adware products to earn more money (by tracking and spying on Android users). Oh please, like Apple isn't doing it. They've got the biggest, most important online content s…

So, WebOS programs is suppose to work on Windows Phone Nintendo games are suppose to work on Sony Playstation? Using your own words, Android "got customers by their balls in a way that Microsoft only dreams of" because Android Market doesn't work on a Dell.

No, my point is that web apps are working everywhere - Android, iOS, WebOS, Windows, OS X, Samsung Bada, Symbian. The experience suffers, but they do work everywhere and it's a huge market outside of iTunes that's waiting to be taken advantage of.

     Using your own words, Android "got customers by 
     their balls in a way that Microsoft only dreams of"
     because Android Market doesn't work on a Dell.
Those weren't my words. However Google doesn't have the same lock-in with Android simply because Android customers can install software from third-party sources. And Microsoft would have never been capable of banning apps (like Firefox) from their platform because it duplicates existing functionality. Apple may have relaxed the rules of administer lately, but it's still a closed garden that even Microsoft wasn't able to pull off.
Post reply on HN