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1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

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Re: 1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

#61
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's debatable. What was the impact of the biases against women towards them working STEM jobs? Could it still linger today in having created the cultural environment which is why few women pursue STEM and why it's still predominantly men? > Research has shown that women are no less capable than men in science and mathematics. But, according to the AAUW, external factors, like a lack of role models, cultures that t…

You miss the point. Let's take as a given that there was discrimination in the past. Unless you have a time machine you can't go back and change that. Hiring more people of the discriminated-against group now benefits new workers of that group (who haven't been discriminated against because they haven't had jobs before) but that does nothing to rectify the past wrongs, it just creates new victims (those who lost out…

My point is focused on equal opportunity. Any individual should have the same opportunity to pursue a tech career, irregardless of their gender. Why tech careers? Because those are really good job opportunities.

What people are trying to "balance" is the unequal opportunities between women and men.

Now I'll assume that you value this goal, because otherwise we need to have a very different conversation.

I've assumed in your prior comment that "Balance it against nothing" refered to you arguing there is no gender inequality of opportunity in tech.

Now, if that was true, you'd expect to see a proportional representation of genders in the field, but that's not what we observe at all, it skews heavily male.

How do we explain this?

Based on your other comments and comments from other commenters, I saw "autism" skews male (I'm not sure about the accuracy of that fact), and tech skews autistic (I'd need data on this), and maybe that explains it.

I also saw some Nature vs Nurture, that maybe women are naturally less interested.

And I saw child bearing, but this is part of the goal, motherhood shouldn't affect your opportunities otherwise it's no longer equal since women have to give birth, and we're back at your gender impacting negatively your opportunities.

Now I'm not actually saying these couldn't be part of the explanation. They could, and if some of those were exclusively the cause, it would explain why we see a male skew in tech, and it would mean the skew isn't due to social inequalities, but women's own personal choice.

What I'm saying is that this conclusion is highly debatable, because there are other explanations that hold more or less merit.

The two I provided I backed up with research.

The gender discrepancy could also be due to:

1. Resume bias, which could indicate a greater trend of overall hiring bias, that might even expand to bias in school assignment grading, school entry application selection, parental encouragement, even women's own self-perceived qualifications.

2. Socio-cultural influences, like the lack of role models, an unwelcoming tech community environment that is intimidating to women or hostile to them, etc.

Again, I'm not saying these are the explanations for sure.

What I'm saying is that they're likely explanations with research backing.

So when you say "Balance it against nothing", you imply you know the absolute truth about this, that you just know for sure there isn't any inequality here whatsoever, and I simply disagree, you've not demonstrated the lack of inequality in a convincing manner, there are bodies of research in fact that indicate that there is still some level of inequality, and that it could be this remaining inequality that explains the gender gap.

That's why I say: "That's debatable". There are as likely, or arguably more likely explanations that would indicate lingering inequality.

Re: 1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really seeing what you're rebutting? Are you denying the results of the research I linked that shows resume bias? Or think the research wasn't thorough enough? Are you saying that you believe the only reason for there being less woman in tech is their nature, that their gender makes them naturally less interested in tech? And your only data point here is an anecdote about you and your sister? > What changed i…

>> What changed is not discrimination, but that the industry first started asking for prior experience with computers, which men had more than women >You don't see this as gender discrimination? Why did men have more access to computers? Why was the access to computers based on gender? If this is evidence of gender discrimination it's by the parents, not by the companies doing the hiring. The companies are doing noth…

I'm not saying the employer is discriminating. Read my other reply to you, I think it clarifies better what I'm saying.

My argument is that, there's a great possibility that gender inequality persists today, and that it contributes to the gender gap. Not that I'm convinced it does for sure, but that it's still highly likely it does, based on research data and other reasonable hypothesis.

Therefore, some companies are trying to combat this possible inequality, by choosing to prioritize a similarly qualified women candidate over a qualified men, in order to limit the effect of possible hiring bias, and promote women representation in tech, in hope to make their workplace more women friendly.

If there is in fact lingering gender inequality, this should help combat it, and it's arguably a good thing (we can separately discuss if in practice it works to combat it or not, but at least it's understandable why they'd do it).

If it turns out there isn't any lingering gender inequality against women, I agree that this would appear to put a bias against men now, creating an inequality against them.

This is where it gets a little tricky, because now it's about your belief of the true cause. I see some men worried about their own career chances often believe that probably there isn't inequality and it's just personal choice. But I also don't understand why you'd worry about it in that case, if women just don't want to become programmers, no amount of policy encouragement would change that, and you've got nothing to worry about.

I also personally feel the evidence for lingering gender inequality appears stronger, and I think you can learn valuable insight by trying some corrective policies and also seeing the outcome. The more policies fail to reduce the gender gap, the more you learn the factors that have or don't have an impact on it, eventually that could lead us to know the real cause.

Re: 1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

#63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What changed is not discrimination, but that the industry first started asking for prior experience with computers, which men had more than women >You don't see this as gender discrimination? Why did men have more access to computers? Why was the access to computers based on gender? If this is evidence of gender discrimination it's by the parents, not by the companies doing the hiring. The companies are doing noth…

I'm not saying the employer is discriminating. Read my other reply to you, I think it clarifies better what I'm saying. My argument is that, there's a great possibility that gender inequality persists today, and that it contributes to the gender gap. Not that I'm convinced it does for sure, but that it's still highly likely it does, based on research data and other reasonable hypothesis. Therefore, some companies are…

Sure there are differences. However, you aren't showing that companies are discriminating to cause that difference. Companies shouldn't bear the burden of righting wrongs that they didn't cause, especially in cases where it's not at all certain there is even a wrong going on.

What you are missing is that if women just don't want to become programmers the drive to not discriminate means companies will be overpaying for female programmers.

And we have seen that policies aimed at reducing discrimination had a big effect in the civil rights era but then accomplish virtually nothing since. Instead, we see wilder and wilder efforts to "prove" discrimination while ignoring the marketplace is saying it's the other way around.

Re: 1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying the employer is discriminating. Read my other reply to you, I think it clarifies better what I'm saying. My argument is that, there's a great possibility that gender inequality persists today, and that it contributes to the gender gap. Not that I'm convinced it does for sure, but that it's still highly likely it does, based on research data and other reasonable hypothesis. Therefore, some companies are…

Sure there are differences. However, you aren't showing that companies are discriminating to cause that difference. Companies shouldn't bear the burden of righting wrongs that they didn't cause, especially in cases where it's not at all certain there is even a wrong going on. What you are missing is that if women just don't want to become programmers the drive to not discriminate means companies will be overpaying fo…

> However, you aren't showing that companies are discriminating to cause that difference

Correct, I'm also making no claims that they are. The discrimination, if there is any, appears to come from socio-cultural causes.

> What you are missing is that if women just don't want to become programmers the drive to not discriminate means companies will be overpaying for female programmers

I'm not following that, can you explain? I'd assume they offer similar pay to man and woman, as far as I know, there's no evidence they're paying woman more, in fact, seems to be the opposite.

> And we have seen that policies aimed at reducing discrimination had a big effect in the civil rights era but then accomplish virtually nothing since

Ya, I'm not sure that you can solve the problem at that level either.

In practice, I think women hiring pushes like this has actually caused some men to be even more hostile to women workers, and that's actually having the opposite effect, work environments are even less welcoming to women, and their credibility is being questioned even more, as people claim they were hired to meet quotas, etc.

It's hard to change socio-cultural attitudes. And it only takes a few derogatory men to make the field toxic to women.

The issue is, what else can you do?

Re: 1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In practice, however, discrimination is measured by diversity. How? Doesn't make much sense to me. measuring diversity is the equivalent of filing the workers, which is illegal, at least in my country.

What the law says and what happens in the courtroom differ. It's illegal to discriminate, but in practice that means it's "illegal" to have a workforce skewed too far towards the white male. Businesses are simply obeying the law as enforced, not the law as written. We see the same thing from both sides--look at the recent cases where hospitals have refused to perform life-saving abortions. They're not going to jail i…

Instead of giving examples of abortion, can you give examples where the court has punished businesses that hired white males, contradicting the race and gender protections offered by the civil rights law.

Re: 1-in-6 managers told to deprioritize hiring white men, 48% diversity over merit

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In practice, however, discrimination is measured by diversity. How? Doesn't make much sense to me. measuring diversity is the equivalent of filing the workers, which is illegal, at least in my country.

What the law says and what happens in the courtroom differ. It's illegal to discriminate, but in practice that means it's "illegal" to have a workforce skewed too far towards the white male. Businesses are simply obeying the law as enforced, not the law as written. We see the same thing from both sides--look at the recent cases where hospitals have refused to perform life-saving abortions. They're not going to jail i…

> What the law says and what happens in the courtroom differ.

I'm not from US, if it wasn't clear.

that difference doesn't exists here.

But most importantly, if it's illegal, it shouldn't be permitted

Classifying worker based on some personal attribute is illegal here and it's punished by the courts.

Because it's the law.

You can't measure diversity, the best you can do is separate male workers from female workers because it's used by the national institute of statistics to calculate the official unemployment rates by gender.

And that's all the diversity you can measure.

Other forms of diversity are measured through not so reliable polls or authorized studies.

It's not something companies can do on their own.

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