Opening the North American charging standard • Hacker News Board

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#61

Post by kortilla » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

kgermino wrote: post #48

Lendal wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might be trying to get ahead of a possible push to mandate CCS, and they don't want to get pushed around like Apple did. I for one am fine with it. The "NACS" is objectively better by almost every available measure, and if the despised Elon Musk wants to give his stuff away, hey I'll take it. Any good reasons why we should reject this proposal?

> Any good reasons why we should reject this proposal? No idea here. The 1 MW charging claim feels weird since faster charging was definitely a touted benefit of CCS in the recent past. I'm not sure if something changed. To me, it doesn't really matter one way or another. The CCS connector is bulky, but so is a gas station nozzle and I've never had a problem using one of those. Plus you'll use the CCS connector less…

>it's already the standard,

Not sure how you’re defining “standard” but given that Tesla has the major majority here, its connector is the standard most people are familiar with.

If you just mean, it’s something not proprietary that other manufacturers agreed on, then sure.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#62

Post by zzzeek » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

stetrain wrote: post #39

zzzeek wrote: post #8

Quoted post unavailable.

I don’t know that this is “instead of.” That isn’t stated anywhere. Tesla has also committed to building Superchargers with CCS connectors.

> I don’t know that this is “instead of.” That isn’t stated anywhere.

this is correct, I am just assuming.

> Tesla has also committed to building Superchargers with CCS connectors.

This has happened in some European countries, but as far as the US, it remains all talk; the large amount of Tesla superchargers everywhere remain unavailable for those of us with CCS vehicles. This move seems very much like intended to take the pressure off having to do this change within the US, which is my point (entirely conjecture on my part).

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#63

Post by InTheArena » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

JonathonW wrote: post #15

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #2

Wow. Awesome! I hope Ford and other EV Manufacturers make retrofit kits though - and similar for the charging stations already deployed. Lugging an adapter for all non-Tesla EVs before the, what, 2024 model year would be irritating. Assuming, of course, they are on board and this doesn't turn into Betamax/VHS, Blu-ray/HD-DVD, or HDR10+/Dolby Vision again.

This won't turn into Betamax/VHS or Blu-ray/HD-DVD because CCS has already won-- every EV sold in the US except Tesla (and maybe still the Nissan Leaf; they may still be on CHAdeMO) has CCS Type 1. This is probably too little, too late for Tesla.

People seem deep in denial about Tesla market share. Tesla is 80% of all EVs sold and still 65% of current vehicles sold last quarter - even with some dramatically cheaper EVs available. As Gigafactories in Austin, Berlin and Shanghai continue to ramp, that's unlikely to change.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#64

Post by advisedwang » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

sigmar wrote: post #27

What legal guarantee is there that Tesla won't reverse course in the future? Say a charging station or car manufacturer adopts this connector and then in 5 years Tesla says "well actually, we've got these patents and we're going to start charging you to sell cars/charging stations"? Publishing the specs and saying "we won't enforce patents" isn't a legally binding guarantee

The press release says:

> we are opening our EV connector design to the world. We invite charging network operators and vehicle manufacturers to put the Tesla charging connector ... equipment and vehicles

This does not even promise that it is free. "open" and "invite you to X" sound good but are very vague.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#65

Post by zzzeek » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #54

zzzeek wrote: post #8

Quoted post unavailable.

You’re confusing the CCS chargers outside of North America. The ones in NA are absolute trash and Tesla is right to try to kill them off as fast as possible before electric car volume that uses them becomes significant. Tesla is well over half of the electric cars. There’s no reason for them to accommodate the absolute worst standard at their stations.

> You’re confusing the CCS chargers outside of North America. The ones in NA are absolute trash and Tesla is right to try to kill them off as fast as possible before electric car volume that uses them becomes significant.

noting that you appear to agree with my assessment that they want to kill off CCS and force all carmakers to use their ports as a means of avoiding having to change their own supercahrgers, otherwise, no thanks, I own a new car with the NA CCS charger and it was a significant investment. I'd prefer my car not be "killed off".

> Tesla is well over half of the electric cars. There’s no reason for them to accommodate the absolute worst standard at their stations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

> Automobile manufacturers that support CCS include BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Rivian, Tesla, Mahindra, Tata Motors and Volkswagen Group.[1][2]

unless they are compelled to do so in the interest of the public good so that "nearly half of electric cars" (currently already on the road) aren't trashed. or please make an adapter for existing CCS cars.

here's a vendor that appears to be planning to manufacture such an adapter. pretty hard to find, though. https://evadept.com/tesla-supercharger-to-ccs-adapter-guide/

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#66

Post by zzzeek » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

wilg wrote: post #11

zzzeek wrote: post #8

Quoted post unavailable.

I believe superchargers are also being upgraded to add CCS1 in North America. Not widely rolled out yet, but I think there are at least some operational. I think some have two cables, but they have some kind of design called "magic dock" that allows a single cable to use either plug. (Superchargers elsewhere use the relevant local standard.)

haven't seen this. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33565868 above.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#67

Post by kortilla » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

JonathonW wrote: post #15

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #2

Wow. Awesome! I hope Ford and other EV Manufacturers make retrofit kits though - and similar for the charging stations already deployed. Lugging an adapter for all non-Tesla EVs before the, what, 2024 model year would be irritating. Assuming, of course, they are on board and this doesn't turn into Betamax/VHS, Blu-ray/HD-DVD, or HDR10+/Dolby Vision again.

This won't turn into Betamax/VHS or Blu-ray/HD-DVD because CCS has already won-- every EV sold in the US except Tesla (and maybe still the Nissan Leaf; they may still be on CHAdeMO) has CCS Type 1. This is probably too little, too late for Tesla.

So in other words, “the vast majority of electric cars in the US are using Tesla’s connector”. How exactly does that mean CCS won?

A bunch of far behind EV manufacturers settling on an inferior connector doesn’t mean much. Tesla and its connector is exactly akin to Sony and Blu-ray, except Tesla is further ahead and won’t be charging licensing.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#68

Post by advisedwang » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

It sounds like folks are assuming this will be free for implementors and license universally with little restriction. Nothing in this press release says it's free. "open" could just mean "open to apply", for example. " We invite charging network operators and vehicle manufacturers to put the Tesla charging connector..." could be read as an invitation to negotiate.

I expect licensing terms to be announced, and I bet you large users will have to pay.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#69

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

wilg wrote: post #50

xxpor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ccs1 vs 2 comes down to the fact that the base plug (the ac part) has to be different between the two. Europe supports 3 phase because it's common there, while the NA plug doesn't, because 3 phase is unheard of in residential installations, and it has to support 120 level 1 charging.

Doesn't seem like it has to be different, right? The Tesla/"NACS" plug supports three-phase.

How? Are you sure?

It has two big power pins, one smaller pin dedicated to ground, and two tiny pins that look completely unsuited for power.

There's a "mobile connector" that can convert 3 phase, but that has an entirely different plug on the wall side.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#70

Post by zzzeek » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #31

systemvoltage wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a bad faith argument. It is more like here is a better design that's more compact and has more adoption, we're making it open standard for anyone to adopt.

Yeah, with the standard open, if we also assume Tesla opens the supercharger network it’s kind of hard to see a great argument for CCS. Better plug, more users, more chargers. I’m biased, but I’ve also used all three plugs (CCS, J1772, NACS). NACS is the USB-C to the other two’s DVI.

the argument is I dont want to take my brand new car to the junkyard in two years.