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Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

wsj.com

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Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#61

Post by AnimalMuppet »

blamazon wrote: post #22
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I hate flying if I can't see out the window. Like, really really hate it.

My experience as a frequent flyer is that First Class is the most likely cabin to have all windows closed for 100% of the flight. It's baffling to me, people will even keep closed the window facing New York on the approach to LaGuardia which should be a crime. Also Boston, Salt Lake, Hawaii, and really pretty much all places except like Dallas and Cleveland types totally perplex me when the window is closed and I'm n…

Back before the in-seat video days, I was flying back from Europe to the US. We were just approaching the coast of Greenland. I could see icebergs in the water, and glaciers coming down to the ocean. Then they asked us to close all the windows so people could see the in-flight movie. And I'm like, when am I going to see Greenland again? I can rent the movie.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#62

Post by cwillu »

gauravjain13 wrote: post #48
chrisBob wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't the bank angle exactly, it is the acceleration of the roll. Pilots will need to be careful not to throw people or drinks around, but I think it would be doable.

True, but absolute bank angle would also matter (say endpoint of roll when roll acceleration is zero) because now there's a component of gravity pulling you sideways.

When roll acceleration is zero, the remaining acceleration (i.e., due to gravity) felt by a passenger on the wing edge will be the same as a passenger in the middle of the plane.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#63

Post by rdtwo »

scarier wrote: post #34
rdtwo wrote: post #9

No they aren’t. Airplanes like boats are certified in such a way that the regulations assume that all future airplanes will look like past airplanes. As such any deviation from that standard form is super expensive because you need to have the regular create an updated set of rules. That takes years and years and tons of money/risk It may make sense from a physics point of view but not from a business view.

Take a look at 14 CFR Part 23. The standards are performance-based. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any kind of proposed aircraft design that doesn’t fall into existing categorization.

It’s the details that get you. Things like door designs visibility, control expectations.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#64

Post by culopatin »

horsawlarway wrote: post #28
blamazon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience as a frequent flyer is that First Class is the most likely cabin to have all windows closed for 100% of the flight. It's baffling to me, people will even keep closed the window facing New York on the approach to LaGuardia which should be a crime. Also Boston, Salt Lake, Hawaii, and really pretty much all places except like Dallas and Cleveland types totally perplex me when the window is closed and I'm n…

I see this more and more everywhere across the plane these days. I remember flying as a kid/teen and nearly every window was open during takeoff and touchdown. Last 3 to 5 years and almost every flight has had less than 10% of the windows open. I don't get it - I also want to see it. We're fucking flying, for god's sake.

I thought I was the only one who experienced this.

I race cars as a hobby but I suffer from motion sickness whenever I’m not driving or whenever I can’t see out. People will choose the window seat and keep it closed the whole time. WHY?! At least open it when we’re on the ground being shaken back and forth while backing out and taxiing so my mind doesn’t lose point of reference.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#65

Post by iLoveOncall »

I recommend this video from the channel Wendover Production (a lot of stuff related to transportation and supply vhain), which explains what is actually the plane of tomorrow (or rather the plane of 2050):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ql0Op1VcELw

Spoilers: It's essentially the same as today. As in, the exact same model. Maybe even the same plane that you flew in already if it's a recent release like the 737 Max.

Before that video I had never thought about the age of the plane I am in, but turns out a lot of the planes I flew in were older than I am.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#66

Post by thot_experiment »

HPsquared wrote: post #47
thot_experiment wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this tracks, I think turbulence powerful enough to cause passenger discomfort is usually so big that it affects the whole plane pretty uniformly. I think it's exceedingly unlikely that you'll spend enough time on a shear line to induce a large roll. At least it's never happened to me, but I am only a passenger.

In a typical plane in turbulence, you can see the wings bending up and down. Perhaps a blended wing would be stiffer, though.

Yes a blended wing would be stiffer, but wing stiffness isn't really relevant here. The wing bending isn't evidence of differential pressure between the two wings, it's only showing that the wings are the part of the plane that's most affected by turbulence while not accounting for the majority of the inertia.

The point is that air currents powerful enough to appreciably affect a large plane are large scale and therefore you're unlikely to have enough differential pressure from one wing to the other to impart much torque.

I'm not certain about this and I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#67

Post by aeternum »

nicktelford wrote: post #15
alexpotato wrote: post #5

Interesting historical note on the blended wing design: One of the main arguments against it was that designers weren't sure if people would be ok with sitting towards the center of the plane. The thought was that passengers wouldn't be comfortable without being able to at least see outside (even a little, looking at you 3/4/3 widebody planes). I mention this b/c there is a quote in Mary Roach's Flying to Mars. She m…

A bigger problem with blended wing designs is actually for the people on the peripheral. When the plane banks, passengers further from the axis of rotation will feel a more significant change in their altitude. You literally feel like you're "falling", as the plane banks to your side. This also applies to existing aircraft, but the amount you drop/rise is limited by the your distance from the axis of rotation, which…

It might be good to have a disincentive for the peripheral window seats. Some also find that feeling of falling / turbulence enjoyable.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#68

Post by aeternum »

horsawlarway wrote: post #28
blamazon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience as a frequent flyer is that First Class is the most likely cabin to have all windows closed for 100% of the flight. It's baffling to me, people will even keep closed the window facing New York on the approach to LaGuardia which should be a crime. Also Boston, Salt Lake, Hawaii, and really pretty much all places except like Dallas and Cleveland types totally perplex me when the window is closed and I'm n…

I see this more and more everywhere across the plane these days. I remember flying as a kid/teen and nearly every window was open during takeoff and touchdown. Last 3 to 5 years and almost every flight has had less than 10% of the windows open. I don't get it - I also want to see it. We're fucking flying, for god's sake.

They used to ask you to open the window shades for takeoff and landing, idea was to actually be aware of what is going on outside incase an evac is necessary.

Now they ask everyone only to close the window shades after landing to better control the temp, the APU a/c is often no match for direct sunlight. Then most people just leave them closed.

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#69

Post by scarier »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #43
dan_quixote wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ribs are already all different across existing commercial airplane wings.

Across the wings yes but not across the majority of the fuselage.

How is that a meaningful distinction from either a design or manufacturing standpoint?

Re: Engineers are exploring radical new designs for commercial planes

#70

Post by aeternum »

shahbaby wrote: post #18

Who will be held accountable when this fails and people die?

Who will be held accountable if it turns out to be safer and it is the traditional designs that are actually killing people. Too often we fixate on blocking new tech in the name of safety. If a new design does turn out to be safer (which is almost always the case) why don't we consider the lives that could have been saved?

As a concrete example, how many lives were lost because we took many months to approve the Covid vaccine? Who's accountable for those deaths and for showing it could not have safely been done sooner?

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