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Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

forum.effectivealtruism.org

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Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#61

Post by woodruffw »

JonahSussman wrote: post #45
woodruffw wrote: post #36

This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done immense damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement. I've never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied consistently . The infusion of cryptocurrency fun…

I'm a bit behind on the times, but I'm failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?

My (outsider's) understanding is that the "longtermist" sub-school of EA has grown over the years, and has developed increasingly convoluted and speculative rationales for behavior that would otherwise be considered unethical.

The example I'm most familiar with is calculating utils in terms of the expected total human population of the galaxy, were we to achieve interstellar travel: it's not inconceivable that orders of magnitude more humans would be alive in the distant future than are alive now, which makes their combined future interest more important than the interests of any (or even all) living human beings. Consequently, we should divert money away from the welfare of people living today and towards efforts that maximize the likelihood of a galaxy filled with colonized planets.

If that sounds ridiculous, it's because it is.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#62

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #34
sillysaurusx wrote: post #23

Does anyone know how Coinbase avoided this fate? I really thought it would be them to fall, but they proved everyone wrong. There’s some key difference between Coinbase and an exchange like FTX. Is it because FTX had a token, and then leveraged themselves using their own token? Binance has a token too. Are they in similar danger? It would be an interesting contrast to know why one exchange is safe vs another. Here’s…

Binance's claims about 1:1 backing for BUSD seem legitimate but then again FTX also seemed like a legitimate exchange. People who use exchanges should withdraw their crypto asap. Does not matter if it's binance or coinbase or kraken. There is 0 benefit to keeping it on any exchange and unlimited risk for doing so

> There is 0 benefit to keeping it on any exchange

Conversion to/from fiat

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#63

Post by meco »

JonahSussman wrote: post #45
woodruffw wrote: post #36

This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done immense damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement. I've never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied consistently . The infusion of cryptocurrency fun…

I'm a bit behind on the times, but I'm failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?

The philosophies aren’t related beyond the fact that EA seems to view making as much money as possible a virtue if you use the money effectively, and the crypto space has happened to be the place where people are making the most money the fastest.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#64

Post by jboy55 »

adam_arthur wrote: post #15
AccountAccount1 wrote: post #10

SBF was a very positive force for EA, now that he's down everyone piles on him? shameless

Well, he apparently hoodwinked his customers by abusing and losing their deposits. I don't think people who made billions by scamming well meaning customers should be held in high regard. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up in prison

Madoff was also a great patron and philanthropist. Al Capone was known to help Chicago's poor and hungry.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#65

Post by paxys »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #23

Does anyone know how Coinbase avoided this fate? I really thought it would be them to fall, but they proved everyone wrong. There’s some key difference between Coinbase and an exchange like FTX. Is it because FTX had a token, and then leveraged themselves using their own token? Binance has a token too. Are they in similar danger? It would be an interesting contrast to know why one exchange is safe vs another. Here’s…

Coinbase is a perfectly normal company. They take your money and exchange it for crypto (and vice versa), taking a cut in the process. There's no funny business with tokens or lending out customer deposits. They are also regulated as a public company by the SEC and Delaware courts. If they do go out of business it'll be due to good old fashioned operating losses.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#66

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

jshen wrote: post #43
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve been waiting years for people to suffer? Lookup “ schadenfreude”.

Many of us have been warning people for years that this would be the outcome. We were ridiculed for it.

I understand. but an “I told you so” response is not your best. Be your best self.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#67

Post by denlekke »

hailwren wrote: post #41
sillysaurusx wrote: post #23

Does anyone know how Coinbase avoided this fate? I really thought it would be them to fall, but they proved everyone wrong. There’s some key difference between Coinbase and an exchange like FTX. Is it because FTX had a token, and then leveraged themselves using their own token? Binance has a token too. Are they in similar danger? It would be an interesting contrast to know why one exchange is safe vs another. Here’s…

Coinbase avoided this fate by being a us regulated company. FTX.us is still above water. It’s the Bahamas based company that was able to cook the books and is now defunct. As for Binance, they have the SAFU ( https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/secure-asset-fund-fo... ) which they just topped up to $1B at current market prices (today). You can verify the balances on chain, but there aren’t any statements about ou…

$1B doesn’t rly reassure me unless I’ve misunderstood. Ftx had $6B in withdraws in 72hours (which they fulfilled) so I don’t rly think binance has shown anything that would provide real protection against a bank run like we just saw.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#68

Post by woodruffw »

loeg wrote: post #48
woodruffw wrote: post #36

This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done immense damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement. I've never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied consistently . The infusion of cryptocurrency fun…

> The infusion of cryptocurrency funny money into that world has completely perverted both aspects: much of EA now seems focused on speculative concerns (AGI) rather than real ones (world hunger or civic integrity) My impression is the (excessive) AGI focus predated FTX (which was founded in 2019), rather than being caused by cryptocurrency money. For example, OpenAI was founded in 2015.

Yeah. To be clear, I'm not claiming that the AGI focus comes from FTX, or any particular monetary source. The claim is that "easy" money (or, more accurately, the prospect of easy money) from those sources has made those aspects of EA more prominent, drowning out other "schools."

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#69

Post by CallMeJim »

AOsborn wrote: post #46
ilamont wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how long can it last at these levels. Where’s the support for this asset?

It's not an asset. It doesn't provide value or a return.

It is an asset, unless you consider gold etc. to not be assets either?

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#70

Post by gonehome »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #37
arkis22 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been waiting for this for years.

You’ve been waiting years for people to suffer? Lookup “ schadenfreude”.

There are lots of dumb HN comments on any cryptocurrency related topic. Most of them don't know what they're talking about. It's one of the topics where engagement here isn't worthwhile imo.

The FTX story is interesting though - mostly reads like an execution by CZ: https://twitter.com/jonwu_/status/1590099676744646656?s=46&t...

The main technical innovation of cryptocurrency is the capability to self-custody funds. People ignore this at their own peril. That said, bad UX will lead people to do the wrong thing even when their life depends on it, so it’s not a surprise it continues to be a problem.

My main takeaway from this is that Coinbase continues to be underrated in the crypto community and Brian Armstrong is a good CEO: https://twitter.com/brian_armstrong/status/15900886737267179...

I'm a little surprised SBF was engaged in this kind of scheme, there's a pretty interesting interview with him and Sam Harris here: https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/271...

Though I suppose Jane Street does select for people willing to take massive risk on bets they think they can control. It might have continued to work out too, but CZ saw an opportunity to destroy a competitor and had the capital to carry it out.

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