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Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

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Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#61

This has always seemed like the most stupid-obvious idea to me. It's amazing to see some recent examples getting closer to production! There are also mod kits available for some EVs which allow you to attach solar body panels that charge the propulsion batteries. And we have some examples of fully solar-powered EVs that have empowered nomads to travel the world without refueling or charging from electric grids. The f…

Lots of extra cost + weight + complexity for marginal benefit. In very specific scenarios it makes sense, but it's usually better to just put the panels on your roof. Most people when shopping for EVs are concerned primarily about single charge range, which solar panels don't really help with. I'm interested to see what these companies come up with, but the proof will come if these companies are still around in 5-10…

500W of cells is about 1kg with another kg of resin on top if there's a surface to bond them to. And costs about $100

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#62
post #40

a average fullsize car has approximately a 7 square meter roof. assume we get 100% of that. times solar gets maybe 200 watts per square meter = 1.4kw. times 6 hours of full solar (if you are lucky) = 8.4kwh. divided tesla model 3 gets 2.4 kwh per mile (per below) ~ 4 miles range?

You're about an order of magnitude off. 2.4 kWh/mi is a total range of 40 mi for a 100kWh battery.

Very good panels are 24%. A reasonable capacity factor for something car shaped is 10%

So about 20 miles/day in an open parking spot.

More realistically there's probably a lot of spaces you couldn't fit a panel on, so maybe 10-15mi/day reliably in most places. Enough to significantly reduce charging for a moderate commute and errand runner or eliminate it during summer.

I'd be a bit sceptical of their claims of reaching similar with polymer cells with such a boxy car though.

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#63
post #59
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their own marketing materials they say that they are using monocrystalline cells. However, there is no reason to take any of these statements seriously as the whole operation is transparently a scam. https://sonomotors.com/site/assets/files/1621/informationssh...

Ahh, fair enough the pride seemed unreasonably low. Though the reason they mention it is still valid even if they might be a scam.

*price

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Solar cars are scam. They are designed to get funding out of investors with poor understanding of technology. They certainly exist, it's just not the performance numbers people want from their vehicle. >Do some basic math. The electric energy harvested with the solar panels is negligible for transportation. Thats not true; and also depends on your usecase. Aptera is certainly going to come to market with a product f…

What makes you think the Aptera is a death trap? It's made out of carbon fibre.

>What makes you think the Aptera is a death trap? It's made out of carbon fibre.

Said carbon fibre is not going to save you from a 80,000lb overloaded dump truck.

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#65
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like things car owners worry about no matter what; even if the materials have no possibility of output.

Yeah, but instead of "meh, I'll wash the car tomorrow" and just drive a dirty car, you get diminished range. And if you're in an area prone to drought (like places that get plenty of sun), washing your car may not even be feasible.

You don't have to get the hose out just to make it transmit 90% of the light. 2 liters in a bowl is plenty.

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#66

Solar panels as (essentially) bodywork seems like it would be less than ideal in actual use. Fender bender? Car got dirty?

Your criticisms aren't the primary problem against solar. Fender bender? I had a lady back into my challenger, plain unpainted black plastic was $3000. Sure I didn't pay... but in terms of solar panel. Cant be worse. Dirty? An actual excuse to wash your car for legitimate benefit? In terms of power production if not, should be fairly minimal reduction with exception of bad conditions like winter. The actual reason wh…

> It's not just expensive solar panels. It's the charge controller, it's the battery bms, its all these things you need to upgrade. These aren't trivial upgrades. The cost to integrate into a controller system like a tesla would double or triple the cost. solid state AC controllers are really expensive to beginwith. So in order to integrate solar into a tesla with their high power. It doesnt make sense.

Complete nonsense. If you're only getting 1-2kW peak then an MPPT and grid inverter is about $300. If you already had 95% of it, then integrating the MPPT with the rest would be $50 tops. You could make a ghetto version of this at early-adopter retail prices with 800W of Sunpower 2mm thick flexible panels, some silicone adhesive, a 500Wh battery as a buffer, a full sine wave inverter with a timer/voltage control plugged into your normal 240V charger and a standard low power MPPT. It would cost about $3-4k and half of the added cost would be from the redundant step-up step-down of voltage and needing a buffer to satisfy the charger. You'd have to run your charger cable from the inside and you'd lose more power from reduced aero from the junction boxes than you gained if you went on the highway (unless you were willing to cut into the roof to put them under), but it's enough to prove your cost argument is wrong.

The cells would be $500 max at volume. Integrating them to the body would be the only expensive part.

It's not really viable for something as wastefully big and powerful as a tesla, but for an econobox you could add 10-20km/day fairly easily. Once perovskites are a thing the cell integration costs go down too.

The argument was true when monocrystalline panels were expensive, fragile and exotic. Now they're not. The main reason not to do it is people would bitch about appearance, then get weird expectations and it would be bad PR. This isn't worth charging a big luxury car ~one fewer times a month.

But mostly-not having to charge a city runabout that does <20km/day is a pretty compelling argument. People that buy econoboxes have much less fragile egos so won't clutch pearls about being able to see a functional element as much, and are more likely to lack the ability to plug their car in at home so not having to go find a charger every week is a more compelling feature. I'm not sure if the Sion hits this demographic as it's quite big and heavy and may be trying to do too many things. I expect the aptera to fill this niche quite well if it doesn't get legislated out of existence.

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"can charge itself 40 miles a day in optimal conditions." Using random numbers from Google for a Tesla 3 for an example, it has a 50kWh battery and 305 miles of range. That's 164Wh per mile. 40 miles would require 6,560Wh. Assuming you leave the car in perfect sunlight for a full 8 hours every day, and there's no cloud, and you get 100% sunlight for the entire 8 hours, then you'd need enough panels to produce 6560Wh…

Your error was in presuming the same weight and drag coefficient as the Tesla. The Aptera is both much lighter and has a far lower drag coefficient. That's where the extra range comes from despite the relative lack of surface area.

The apteta isn’t the subject of this article though. The aptera is legally not even a car, as it’s a 3 wheeler. It’s a pretty extreme vehicle. Very cool, but quite extreme. The subject of the article, is trying to be a normal 5 door car. So comparing it to the state of the art in normal cars makes sense. The claims with this car are aptera performance (40 miles a day) but with normal car form. How is that possible? That’s why people are suspicious.

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think the Aptera is a death trap? It's made out of carbon fibre.

>What makes you think the Aptera is a death trap? It's made out of carbon fibre. Said carbon fibre is not going to save you from a 80,000lb overloaded dump truck.

Being in an SUV won't save you from that either.

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#69
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most renters have little control of whether they have access to an EV hookup. This opens up the market to street parkers in the right climates.

I suppose I could imagine a scenario where maybe a city dweller who doesn't drive much could street park and they could do their grocery runs and occasional running around from the solar self-charge. Then you would be looking at less trips to the public charger. It's probably pretty common in Manhattan to do less than 10 miles a day so you'd only end up at the public charger when the weather was bad. Ok I'm sold on t…

I think it could make even more sense in places like Arizona: fewer clouds, trees, and tall buildings.

Kind of interesting to ponder that we might soon have car SKUs that are much more regionally localized: a car that works great in CA or AZ, but is entirely impractical for the midwest. (However, I suppose that describes 'convertibles' pretty well)

Re: Solar car just toured the US, and will start production next year

#70

This is a mostly dumb and gimmicky idea. It will fail. If we want serious climate solutions we need either a massive build-out of nuclear power or wind plus utility-scale battery (or potentially ammonia) storage. Solar energy has a ridiculously low EROI. Solar energy on a car? Probably an even lower EROI.

You're fifteen years out of date. A 2022 PERC cell has an EBPT of about 3-6 months and can be recycled after 30 years into a slightly worse cell which will last another 30 years. Only wind comes close.

> A 2022 PERC cell has an EBPT of about 3-6 months

Okay, so there's a new solar cell that is slightly better and perhaps can be manufactured a little cheaper. Great! So what? You have failed to take into account the burden of energy storage. The capacity factor for solar is an abysmal ~20% if not ~10% in some localities. Wind can have a superior capacity factor of up to ~50%. Energy storage is the constraint.

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