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Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

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Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#61

Post by dfox »

DannyBee wrote: post #3

I do a lot of PLC work. The Arduino IDE is totally unsuitable for it. No idea what they are doing about this. It would take an amazing amount of work to fix this. As for PLC functionality people actually use, the product page says "Optional support for standard IEC 61131-3 PLC languages". This is what folks use for real. I presume this means "we didn't want to pay CodeSys but you can". Or something. That sucks. Maybe…

My experience from integrating various automation systems (typically large-ish roller conveyor systems) is that often IEC 61131 languages are actually detrimental to productivity of the PLC programmers. It is this weird turing tarpit where anything that can be expressed as ladder logic is simple and point an click (modulo the horrible UI/UX of every single PLC IDE) but anything more complex than that is huge pain because you are constantly fighting against the dumbed-down programming model and constantly reimplementing simple algorithms that are part of standard library in essentially any other programming ecosystem. And that is just for the control of moderately complex process (eg. tracking positions of unit loads on the conveyor), any kind of communication with external world (which tends to be event based) is horrible mess in order for it to fit into the cycle based model (and the argument that it gives you predictable and consistent latency is pure hogwash, the cycle time jitter caused by branching and other threads running on the PLC's CPU tends to be huge, at least on S7-300/1200/1500).

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#62

Post by tehf0x »

faxmeyourcode wrote: post #56
DannyBee wrote: post #3

I do a lot of PLC work. The Arduino IDE is totally unsuitable for it. No idea what they are doing about this. It would take an amazing amount of work to fix this. As for PLC functionality people actually use, the product page says "Optional support for standard IEC 61131-3 PLC languages". This is what folks use for real. I presume this means "we didn't want to pay CodeSys but you can". Or something. That sucks. Maybe…

Off topic, but this is the first time I've seen PLC mentioned on HN. Is there a well known path from transitioning from a normal style of "software engineering" job that isn't embedded focused, and into the PLC/industrial automation field? I have family working in chemical engineering plants and I think the machinery is badass. I feel like I would like a PLC job but I don't know where to begin. From the other comment…

Also interested, I've always wondered what "the book" would be to learn to make a nice proper industrial control cabinet (PLCs, wiring, components etc.)

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#63

Post by Alupis »

DannyBee wrote: post #3

I do a lot of PLC work. The Arduino IDE is totally unsuitable for it. No idea what they are doing about this. It would take an amazing amount of work to fix this. As for PLC functionality people actually use, the product page says "Optional support for standard IEC 61131-3 PLC languages". This is what folks use for real. I presume this means "we didn't want to pay CodeSys but you can". Or something. That sucks. Maybe…

> The Arduino IDE is totally unsuitable for it

No one that uses the Arduino library/hardware/ecosystem on a serious level actually uses the Arduino IDE - for what it's worth. The Arduino IDE is supposed to be for beginners to get started really easy.

For everyone else, use what you want... be it vendor IDE's (ie. Atmel Studio), PlatformIO (for your favorite IDE), etc.

There's nothing special about Arduino that requires using it's official IDE.

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#64

Post by Gracana »

dfox wrote: post #61
DannyBee wrote: post #3

I do a lot of PLC work. The Arduino IDE is totally unsuitable for it. No idea what they are doing about this. It would take an amazing amount of work to fix this. As for PLC functionality people actually use, the product page says "Optional support for standard IEC 61131-3 PLC languages". This is what folks use for real. I presume this means "we didn't want to pay CodeSys but you can". Or something. That sucks. Maybe…

My experience from integrating various automation systems (typically large-ish roller conveyor systems) is that often IEC 61131 languages are actually detrimental to productivity of the PLC programmers. It is this weird turing tarpit where anything that can be expressed as ladder logic is simple and point an click (modulo the horrible UI/UX of every single PLC IDE) but anything more complex than that is huge pain bec…

Yeah, at my last job I had a similar realization. I went in agreeing with the conventional wisdom that you have to use ladder logic so that techs and customers ands other engineers can understand and work on your program. In reality, modern machinery (with networks and servo motion and smart sensors etc) is wildly complex. In seven years I didn’t meet a single customer or technician who felt comfortable making program modifications, and even qualified engineers would struggle to learn the ins and outs of an unfamiliar program. Ladder logic just didn’t provide the benefits that folks claimed were the reason we used it.

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#65

Post by Gracana »

tehf0x wrote: post #62
faxmeyourcode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off topic, but this is the first time I've seen PLC mentioned on HN. Is there a well known path from transitioning from a normal style of "software engineering" job that isn't embedded focused, and into the PLC/industrial automation field? I have family working in chemical engineering plants and I think the machinery is badass. I feel like I would like a PLC job but I don't know where to begin. From the other comment…

Also interested, I've always wondered what "the book" would be to learn to make a nice proper industrial control cabinet (PLCs, wiring, components etc.)

I’m not sure if there’s a The Book (probably though… look for industrial automation course materials); I mostly learned by example, by reading standards (check out NFPA 79 “electrical standard for industrial machinery”), and by reading automation vendor literature.

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#66

Post by pclmulqdq »

liminalsunset wrote: post #51
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see that things like these would be a good step up for those who were originally not even using PLCs I agree that that's what Arduino thinks the market is, but I disagree that their conceptual market will buy this. Arduino-branded hardware is typically 5x the cost of the clones (remember, it's OSH) at no noticeable improvement in quality. DIN-rail mountable arduino clones and modules with I/O isolation that r…

I definitely see where you're coming from and I think these are valid points. In my personal experience though, there definitely does exist a market of "price insensitive, as long as it's under x". I think Arduino probably fits in there. I feel like at least based on the quality of some boards vs clones that I have, there are definitely cases where I would have been "fired for not buying Arduino [IBM]" due to stuff l…

You may have run into a counterfeit FTDI chip, then. The normal $5 arduino clones from reputable manufacturers often have genuine chips. The $2-3 ones are trouble.

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#67

Post by gaze »

gw98 wrote: post #18

I don't get the market position of this. A number of Chinese companies produce DIN rail mounted PLCs which already cover this market, cost virtually nothing and actually emulate Mitsu GX ones so work with existing off the shelf tools and have the same real time guarantees as the commercial units. If you're going to cheap out, these are fine. But this isn't the problem. The expensive bit of a PLC is the dude perma-wel…

What are some good keywords to search for if I'm looking for some of these knockoff PLCs?

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#68

Post by dfox »

Gracana wrote: post #64
dfox wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience from integrating various automation systems (typically large-ish roller conveyor systems) is that often IEC 61131 languages are actually detrimental to productivity of the PLC programmers. It is this weird turing tarpit where anything that can be expressed as ladder logic is simple and point an click (modulo the horrible UI/UX of every single PLC IDE) but anything more complex than that is huge pain bec…

Yeah, at my last job I had a similar realization. I went in agreeing with the conventional wisdom that you have to use ladder logic so that techs and customers ands other engineers can understand and work on your program. In reality, modern machinery (with networks and servo motion and smart sensors etc) is wildly complex. In seven years I didn’t meet a single customer or technician who felt comfortable making progra…

One thing that I have noticed is that often in the PLC projects done by seasoned automation engineers the logic that would make sense to be represented as LD is written directly as IL spaghetti code. I assume that this has to do with general unwieldiness of the LD editors in the vendors' IDEs.

AFAIK the original idea behind LD is that you can do it on paper, and then hand-assemble the “bytecode” for the PLC and just manually key that into the PLC on some sort of octal/hexadecimal keypad without any kind of computer-like programming device. Obviously, this idea does not translate to present world with cheap and ubiquitous general purpose computers.

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#69

Post by vvanders »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #45
liminalsunset wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking (but can't confirm) that the intended market for these is companies that are too small to care about things like "well established vendors", where budgets are measured on the magnitude of hundreds of dollars and not thousands, and things are built from scrap or misc parts. I'm guessing that in some countries other than EU/Americas/etc, where things are done by "I know a guy that can figure it out", and p…

> I can see that things like these would be a good step up for those who were originally not even using PLCs I agree that that's what Arduino thinks the market is, but I disagree that their conceptual market will buy this. Arduino-branded hardware is typically 5x the cost of the clones (remember, it's OSH) at no noticeable improvement in quality. DIN-rail mountable arduino clones and modules with I/O isolation that r…

Yeah Automation Direct is already in this space with their Arduino PLC[1] which has compatibility with their existing modules/etc.

I'm only adjacent to the space and have use their stuff for some home automation but from what I've seen it's more important that you can get replacement parts and reliability.

[1] https://www.automationdirect.com/open-source/home

Re: Arduino unveils the Opta – “Micro PLC” for industrial IoT

#70

Post by mediaman »

faxmeyourcode wrote: post #56
DannyBee wrote: post #3

I do a lot of PLC work. The Arduino IDE is totally unsuitable for it. No idea what they are doing about this. It would take an amazing amount of work to fix this. As for PLC functionality people actually use, the product page says "Optional support for standard IEC 61131-3 PLC languages". This is what folks use for real. I presume this means "we didn't want to pay CodeSys but you can". Or something. That sucks. Maybe…

Off topic, but this is the first time I've seen PLC mentioned on HN. Is there a well known path from transitioning from a normal style of "software engineering" job that isn't embedded focused, and into the PLC/industrial automation field? I have family working in chemical engineering plants and I think the machinery is badass. I feel like I would like a PLC job but I don't know where to begin. From the other comment…

The industry does not have a great reputation. You will make less money and in worse working conditions, likely with more travel. The machines are cool.

Automation Direct has some starter PLCs that are in the hundreds of dollars, and they have good enough reputations (though you will find shops that turn up their nose at AD). That'll be enough to learn ladder logic. And you can buy servos or steppers and learn motion control as well.

It'll be difficult to get a job without experience at first, but talent is short and you might be able to convince someone to do entry-level work with the material you taught yourself. And then it gets easier.

But you might start missing your old software engineering job.

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