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Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

t.me

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Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#61

Post by josephcsible »

sascha_sl wrote: post #28
orangepurple wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what Kikifarms is/does/has. That said, what do you do if you are asymmetrically attacked by activists? Are you automatically in the wrong?

No, but Cloudflare and several other ISPs will not drop you simply because a large volume of people complains. This doesn't work like Twitter moderation. The quality of these complaints warrants not wanting those people associated with you.

> Cloudflare and several other ISPs will not drop you simply because a large volume of people complains.

Yes they will. This is the example of them literally doing exactly that.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#62

Post by zo1 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #51
josephcsible wrote: post #2

This is why arguments justifying censorship by saying "just host it yourself then" are wrong. Whenever you take over one level in the stack, the next level down will just censor you instead.

Perhaps high quality fiber connections with decent upload capacity should be a utility to every home. And ipv6. Then cutting off connections has to go through courts.

Hosting anything on your home connections is already a ToS violation on probably 99.999% of ISPs out there. No need to be Kiwifarms to be kicked off. It's also common from what I heard for them to block incoming HTTP ports entirely.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#63

Post by bigshell »

d_e_solomon wrote: post #40
bigshell wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is harassment? Is it talking about people on a website? People say that stating someone's address, phone number, email, is a form of doxing and therefore harassment. But, these things are just statements of fact. To say that the statement and sharing of factual information obtained legally is not a free speech issue is completely disingenous, 12 years ago when WikiLeaks was leaking information which had been giv…

We keep seeing actions from Kiwifarms that include doxing, swatting,and cyber bullying that lead to the suicide and death of people. If you're saying that swatting is free speech, then we've pushed the idea of speech beyond all reasonable boundaries and have decided that speech just means that people are free from consequences of their actions.

Have you visited this website? I have. I found what I assume to be doxes which you have to log in to the website if you'd like to view, but that's factual information, why is the statement of factual information so heinous that this website must be taken off the internet? I saw some pretty mean things, but nobody was saying that you should go say these things on other people's profiles, they just kept these mean things on their website. I didn't see anybody organising swattings, or any other sort of criminal activity.

I haven't seen any news reports which substantiate these claims that Kiwi Farms is a haven of criminality, just allegations in newspapers which are presented as fact. I've seen no way to verify that any of these claims are in fact true, nobody has.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#65

Post by sascha_sl »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #36
sascha_sl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can the targets of Kiwifarms opt-out from being harassed as a result of being listed alongside their address on the site?

Two wrongs don't make a right. If Kiwifarms is acting illegally, sue them in court. If there are no laws, lobby to make them. ISPs are not police, elected representatives or courts; they shouldn't be allowed to usurp that role.

You're acting like "lobbying to make them" is as easy as following a 3-step how to guide.

Think about trans people as a demographic for a second.

We have very little economic power or numbers worth mobilizing for votes. Absolutely nobody has any interest in lobbying for us, corporations posturing to appeal to idealistic liberals (and then doing nothing) aside.

The only resemblance of institutional power trans people have is to appeal to those that have the actual power.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#66

Post by josephcsible »

d_e_solomon wrote: post #30
orangepurple wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what Kikifarms is/does/has. That said, what do you do if you are asymmetrically attacked by activists? Are you automatically in the wrong?

No, but any reasonable examination of Kiwifarms shows a history of swatting, doxing, and bullying that has led to suicides. If I had a hosting business, I don't see why I should be required to carry their content or provide service to them. It's not a free speech question - it's a shitty behavior question.

> If I had a hosting business, I don't see why I should be required to carry their content or provide service to them.

This story is about an ISP, not a hosting business. To understand why, imagine if you were instead a utility company asking why you should have to provide water or electricity to them.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#67

Post by simplotek »

Trumpi wrote: post #19
insanitybit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't see that argument a lot. I'm glad their ISP dropped them. "Censorship" is a bit of a silly word to me at this point. Is it censorship when your email provider removes spam? When your antivirus removes malware? I mean, spam is speech, malware is code and code is speech. So it is censorship. We just all agree it's a good thing. This is a good thing. edit: Since this keeps coming up, it's not just spam emails/…

> Is it censorship when your email provider removes spam? No, but only in situations where it is user controlled. In other words, tools that empower a user to control what they read is not censorship. In the case of spam, false positives and false negatives can be addressed by the user by adding/removing email from a spam folder. If the user does not have this kind of control, then it can be argued that this is censo…

> No, but only in situations where it is user controlled. In other words, tools that empower a user to control what they read is not censorship.

That makes no sense. A paper supplier is not censoring anyone if they can't or won't provide printing paper.

You're somehow conflating not actively supporting a cause with censoring someone. It's ok if you feel yo have something to say to the world, but that does not give you the right to coerce everyone around you to support your personal project.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#68

Post by VHRanger »

josephcsible wrote: post #2

This is why arguments justifying censorship by saying "just host it yourself then" are wrong. Whenever you take over one level in the stack, the next level down will just censor you instead.

Yes, if absolutely no one wants to associate with you, you'll have to do everything yourself.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#69

Post by boppo1 »

sascha_sl wrote: post #56
boppo1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moon? Please loop me in. There is precedent for censorious tech conglomerates (reddit, at least) to defend people who are sex offenders. I'm no fan of Kiwifarms, but I'm also no fan of the DIY HRT guide Keffals runs that advises (often underage) people on doing home-chemistry to make hormones. Would be nice if the right could stop slandering every trans person as a mentally ill groomer and the left could stop labelin…

That is a lie. Nobody is making "bathtub estrogen". It's not that easy to make. It's always been a joke. Estradiol as a medication is easily available. It is listed on the WHO list of essential medicines and very commonly prescribed to women after menopause. So there's no money to be made there either.

Hell I dunno bud. All I know is when I followed a few breadcrumbs a while back I quickly found a 'guide' on it. I knew a kid in highschool who extracted DMT himself with lighter fluid from an online guide, and that was just to get high. I know that dysphoria is a pretty desperate situation for some, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone felt motivated to make the attempt.
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